Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights

That was a fun night...

Hand of the Arkati farms Reim every Wednesday night. "Farming" Reim means that unlike a normal Reim progression, we're just hanging out in the plaza for 2 hours from 8:30 to 10:30 PM. Being in the first area allows people the ability to invest in simucoin Reim entries, and re-orb their progress. If you burn a simucoin entry while in the midst of a run, it will reset your scrip progress. On a typical farming night, most individuals can reorb up to 10 times, for 10k scrip. Since many of us are going for Ethereal armor, Adding ethereal armor on armor and fully unlocking it requires 2,280,000 scrip. Doing this once a week boosts weekly gains from 7k scrip up to 18k scrip. Meaning we can complete in 2.4 years instead of 6.2 years.

There are proportionate spawns to the participants in Reim. Having more people means more per wave, means more script per wave, means faster scrip gain per person, means more silvers (but more splits... kind of nets out). We are not spam-attacking. With >25 people, each person can usually only attack once per wave for the tag, credit, etc. We really just want scrip as fast as possible. The timetables are intense, and we want our shiney armor! People come and go, burn their Long Term boosts, their instant absorbers, refill favor, gather their necro energy, etc. It's our little service night... except... in Reim, killing creatures.

It's worth pointing out that our recent Wednesday farming nights are far from the maximum quantity of people we've had in Reim with us. We've reached up to 32 people running Reim, without falter, without lag. I have detailed information about how many people have run any event with HoA since our first run on 7/19/2016, and over 280 events since then. We have been running Wednesday farm nights officially on the calendar since 5/20/2017. It's a great display that combat, and the systems that use to support Gemstone are becoming more complex as times go on. While it's obvious when we see lag with >700 people when we used to see lag with only >2500 people, it's because every attack is now not just evaluating a weapon for enchant, weighting, flares, but also now confirming your enhanced stat, looking for a variety of script flares, evaluating ensorcelling potential, potentially checking both weightings, etc, etc. Everything across Gemstone has gotten infinitely more complex since yesteryears. Complex for the better. But realistically, outside of early Dreavenings, there really wasn't an organization such as this to really stress the servers. So, every <.1% processing speed loss over the last 20 years may have added up! All that said, I admit this is mostly speculation on anecdotal observation.

We are doing our best to attempt the various built-in mechanisms for lag reduction. Wyrom stated in Discord that the lag was predominantly generated by third-party messaging. That doesn't mean Lich, that's more about Whirlin casts 518, and then the other 27 people get a bunch of scroll with his 99999 AS attacks against 52 different critters. That transmission to the 27 other people was more strain than the calculation/execution of the attack. To help remediate this, we tested out the combatbrief flag yesterday, and observed a decrease in the quantity of XML that was being transmitted to our clients. That being said, the xml packets still contained critical flavor text, which while was not prompted on the UI, was incredibly prevalent in the logs being sent by the simu Servers. Unfortunately, combatbrief alone (for at least a dozen of the 28 people) was insufficient to curb the lag. We discussed Lost Ranger's ;briefcombat script, but it's really a post-transmission filtering process, and would not reduce the Simu Server load.

Changing the date does not address any of these underlying concerns. There is a structural concern with how groups of this size are managed. We are looking to further expand the HoA roster, and Wyrom has stated that end-game content is on the horizon, probably even before Savants (yes, that was a joke). Changing the date isn't kicking the can down the road, it's moving a mattress from the middle lane of the highway to a different lane of the highway rather than having it removed. It's still going to cause an issue until the mattress is removed. While also impacting every single one of our members and guests that have scheduled Wednesday nights with us to gather their Favor, their Necro-Energy, burn their Long Term boosts, their Instant-clearers, their Reim Orbs. We have a roster of 78 with probably about 2 dozen rotating guests to consider. We are willing to work with the GMs on stop gaps, and sit down with further discussions about things we'd like to see from capped hunting, etc... but swapping the dates does not address anything that caused it to be a problem in the first place.

Don't misunderstand, we want this lag gone too. I know of at least 3 people that would join our ranks if our events were more feasible to execute. But with the lag introduced, they were having more difficulty hitting the rares, and progressing through Reim, and they didn't feel welcome because of their 286 computer with their 14.4 modem not being able to keep up.

Wyrom stepped in last night on Discord and said that he will be making it a priority to speak with Rester and some on-site people regarding options. We welcome anything short term such as capping out spawns in Reim based on X people, but would request script per kill increased proportionately as to not directly/exclusively nerf us. This is likely easier/faster to do than an overhaul of the combatbrief command. And once that overhaul does go live, I will work with our members to ensure that they are running the commands to reduce system utilization and streamline the game for all players. We just need time to get there.

Alternatively, with all the simucoin sales they could invest money and time into not making the core of the game shit?

Being as how (and yes, I realize use of that phrase earns me a minimum of three 'douche' points) White Haven's service night seems to line up directly with HoA farming night, I'm glad to see that there's some thought being put into alleviating the lag issues.

That said, I definitely understand that it's a mattress in the highway situation. While I PERSONALLY would prefer that it not be Wednesday nights, I understand that it has to be sometime, and if it were to be rescheduled it'd just be inconveniencing someone else.

Toes crossed that Wyrom and company can come up with some sort of alternative. Maybe when you enter Reim you get ported into Shattered or something.

I have been corrected. Briefcombat is Daedeeus Spellmerge is Lost Rangers!

Could changing equipment, or specific spell usage help minimize lag in the short term? I imagine only a GM could answer this question, but if specific items/spells are causing problems, perhaps alternatives could be used until the issue is more properly addressed.

Gemstone is supposed to be a multiplayer game. Group hunting is a core mechanic. This type of activity should be a priority for DEV (not that i'm stating it isn't). I'd want the issue addressed as much as possible from that aspect before any dissolving of large-scale group hunting.

Would splitting the group into 2 or 3 (depending on the size) help the lag problem?

You said a lot of awesome things...but also made me realize just how long it's going to take to obtain legit Reim armour. Omg, fucking woe.

With all the lag last night, I couldn't reorb more than 5 times!

Using the following configuration did help me in the end: brief combat flag on, ;briefcombat, ;spellmerge, ALT+L. I was getting TWO whole casts of 908 off per wave. Whoa.

@Sabotage

Apparently @Whirlin forgot to post some of his responses from the officials, but he addressed that issue there. I'll cross-post here: It defeats the purpose, as outlined above. More people, more tags per time, more rewards, more XP, more fame, more favor, more everything. Breaking the group into smaller groups not only fragments our participation, could causes clicks for people that want to be in close proximity to other members, forks any pre-made reorbing scripts already set to return to the plaza (off the beaten path, per request by Retser), introduces an additional unsafe rooms in the Reim area for soloers, etc. It's overall a lose-lose-lose, it defeats the purpose of a single, cohesive MHO, it reduces individual benefits, and potentially introduces more drama. Additionally, it does not address any underlying system concern that are causing the problems in the first place.

@horibu said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

Additionally, it does not address any underlying system concern that are causing the problems in the first place.

no it doesn't, but with the current state of things, it is the considerate thing to do.

I've lived through trying to change a 25 man raid into 2 10 man raids in the WOW days. I will not do that to an MHO and the drama that ensues.

@whirlin said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

I've lived through trying to change a 25 man raid into 2 10 man raids in the WOW days. I will not do that to an MHO and the drama that ensues.

so 30 people want to hunt together, but 150 want to do guild night, why does your group get to ruin the time for the majority?

I'm torn because its going to suck shit dealing with this until Simutronics fixes its shit. And if we do anything to NOT cause it to happen they wont ever change it because "oh hey it fixed itself and we didnt have to spend any money!" The same exact reason we now have two shit forums and a discord channel or two and a terrible official forums.

We need to call for a disabling of 709 globally due to the lag it imposes from additional creatures/ambients/etc

Hyperbole aside, is it 709 that is causing a lot of the issues?

@evarin said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

Hyperbole aside, is it 709 that is causing a lot of the issues?

We have crashed Reim due to 709. The first time creatures got lumped into a "And many other things" messaging, because we had 3 sorcerers all using 709, caused a wrapping effect, etc. This was why invasions got disabled.

Wrapping effect... You know when there are a shit ton of objects in a room, and you look, and you see "And many other objects"... that's what I meant.

Given that messaging/etc is a concern and lag inducer, arms have their own periodic ambients/attacks/etc that each need to be pushed, as well as decaying, and not a single one per user. Given that ambients do have the ability to cause lag, these are absolutely hurting more than a 512/518/912/410/1030/635/1630/135 tag

There should flat out be some sort of squelching mechanic built into the game as we get this issue in more than just Reim. We see it at raffles, big storylines, invasions, slightly at dreavenings, and now of course large hunting parties within Reim. If PCs in room > value, implement server side condensing/squelching.

We're not going to split our nightly group hunts up, as that hurts our gains within Reim for reasons mentioned above. Is it selfish, yes, but we pay just as much as everyone else to play the game. Everyone should be able to play the game how they want within the rules/guidelines Simu lays out before us. Does this cause issue for others, yes. But so does everyone going to a dreavening, logging in their alts for raffles, running MA groups in hunting grounds. Should we tell them all to stop as well until Simu beefs up the server or does a better client/server messaging system, definitely not. We just adapt our play style to accommodate. We could move "Farm" night to another night but we'd still gather at 8:30pm to do a Reim run on Wednesday regardless for a regular run then. Unless someone can make Simu just give us flat out silvers/script/fame/exp for not running on Guild night, which you'd have a better chance of getting Savants implemented instead.

If the user numbers are going up these problems are going to happen more and more as the game caters to power gamers and mechanics min/maxing. If they can't handle the game its not unreasonable to expect them to change it to accommodate it, otherwise they'll lose any gains they got.

@allereli Soo.... we should sit on our asses because we've achieved our cap status and still want to do something fun with others our age while you do your guild night? Got it. LMAO.

@siierra said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

@allereli Soo.... we should sit on our asses because we've achieved our cap status and still want to do something fun with others our age while you do your guild night? Got it. LMAO.

or you can go split up the group and go on different nights. the problem is the amount of you doing what you're doing in one room. Congrats, you've hijacked the game for your MHO.

Not really... these are PUBLIC, calendared events, with a defined location to meet. It's the equivalent of telling White Haven to spell up their people in two different locations on their service night.

@whirlin said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

Not really... these are PUBLIC, calendared events, with a defined location to meet. It's the equivalent of telling White Haven to spell up their people in two different locations on their service night.

no, it's not. White Haven's group and event is not being identified as the cause of any lag.

Not to mention, we've already had multiple meetings with Retser/Wyrom because our group's physical location needs to be concretely established, to reduce the potential of incidental death, which has occurred lots.

@whirlin said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

Not to mention, we've already had multiple meetings with Retser/Wyrom because our group's physical location needs to be concretely established, to reduce the potential of incidental death, which has occurred lots.

so you've already been disruptive to the people who don't want to join your group but still do Reim.

@allereli said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

@whirlin said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

Not to mention, we've already had multiple meetings with Retser/Wyrom because our group's physical location needs to be concretely established, to reduce the potential of incidental death, which has occurred lots.

so you've already been disruptive to the people who don't want to join your group but still do Reim.

Yep, and we've worked with the GMs on it. We're attacked as often as we attack. People coming in on us, us walking in on people, and some instancing anomalies in the throne room. We've established additional rules and guidance on timetables of farming and progression, announcing our events, etc, and run them publicly, welcoming all people. If people decide not to run with us, they can't claim that they were not aware we were in there. We've worked with other groups and GMs on establishing where in each part of the castle we will be as to ensure that we're not standing in a bottleneck location that people need to pass, and we've identified a few areas were more rooms off the beaten path would be ideal (road).

We're very responsive and inclusive. Making us out to be the bad guys because we're a big, easy target and w're playing the game in a way you don't like isn't going to fly.

We've accommodated issues that have come forth from our normal Reim runs in such a fashion that it didn't diminish our playing factor of how we do Reim. The request to split our group up would diminish our returns, therefore will not be done. We could move it to another night, but Wednesday would be turned into a normal run night then and would still cause lag, perhaps not as much, but still lag. Then the night we do move farming too would cause events normally planned those nights to have to reschedule. It's a never ending loop of WTF until Simutronics can discuss and put in a fix.

@allereli said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

Congrats, you've hijacked the game for your MHO.

The fact that the responses from members of said MHO, with the exception of Whirlin and maybe Nuadjha, have been essentially "LOL, Too Bad, So Sad!!," disinclines myself for one to want to do anything to accommodate them.

I don't think it would be unreasonable to ask everyone to do their part while this is being addressed. Anyone logged into the game from 8:30-10:30 on any night of the week should isolate themselves as much as possible, or pair off with someone at the very most. All ambient effects should be disabled and sneaking through rooms should be encouraged, if not required, to provide messaging to as few other players as possible. We'll call it Couple's Couple Hours.

@avaia said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

@allereli said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

Congrats, you've hijacked the game for your MHO.

The fact that the responses from members of said MHO, with the exception of Whirlin and maybe Nuadjha, have been essentially "LOL, Too Bad, So Sad!!," disinclines myself for one to want to do anything to accommodate them.

It's more in regards to Allereli's saltiness and not wanting to be redundant, than their overall true facts on the matter. I had discussions with them in our officer chat prior to posting my initial commentary, and we were speaking about it length during yesterday's run when Wyrom was getting involved and having discussions on the other discord server.

@briarfox said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

We're very responsive and inclusive. Making us out to be the bad guys because we're a big, easy target and w're playing the game in a way you don't like isn't going to fly.

just because you're inclusive and not meaning to cause lag doesn't mean that you don't have a responsibility when you know you're causing issues for the entire game to take action to make changes.

I don't think 30+ people in a group of capped+ characters casting all the spells was intended design.

@ragz said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

I don't think it would be unreasonable to ask everyone to do their part while this is being addressed. Anyone logged into the game from 8:30-10:30 on any night of the week should isolate themselves as much as possible, or pair off with someone at the very most. All ambient effects should be disabled and sneaking through rooms should be encouraged, if not required, to provide messaging to as few other players as possible. We'll call it Couple's Couple Hours.

Whirlin and Treeva claim the Reim general store, dibs.

@avaia Absolutely NO ONE is too bad, so sading. We are lol'ing at the fact that it was said ''we'' should accommodate and give priority to the rest of the game. (As someone already pointed out.) We've been doing this EVERY night for over a year now. The lag issue is RECENT. It's being looked into. So all this excessive bitching is not going to expedite the resolution. However, if that is what you people feel is necessary. Carry on.

lol, at least Dreaven changed it up and made accommadations when he shit all over the game server. Not circled the wagons and got all high and mighty about it. "what you people" Get fucked.

@allereli said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

@briarfox said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

We're very responsive and inclusive. Making us out to be the bad guys because we're a big, easy target and w're playing the game in a way you don't like isn't going to fly.

just because you're inclusive and not meaning to cause lag doesn't mean that you don't have a responsibility when you know you're causing issues for the entire game to take action to make changes.

I don't think 30+ people in a group of capped+ characters casting all the spells was intended design.

As we've explained, there are no real changes that would make a difference unless we wanted to stop hunting Reim, which of course we don't.

@siierra said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

However, if that is what you people feel is necessary. Carry on.

"You people?" Yah, ok.

@ordim said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

lol, at least Dreaven changed it up and made accommadations when he shit all over the game server. Not circled the wagons and got all high and mighty about it. "what you people" Get fucked.

If we did something like divide up the group, swap days, etc... Every single person would be worse off, with less tags, less kills, less favor, less scrip, less everything to show from it. Dreavening is NOT a comparison, as at the end of the day, everyone who attends a dreavening still ends up with full spells/etc.

Except, it is, Everyone would get spells faster if it was all in one big group and the people who could send mana to help the groups that didnt have the same amount of mana. That's exactly what your argument is, time. It's faster to blow through orbs in less time with a larger group, but at the end of X number of runs, you still have the same amount of ghost bucks. So its 100% fair comparison.

@ordim No, the analogy breaks down because we're time limited. We could indeed do the same number of orbs, but it would take us longer. We only farm for 2 hours.

If there was a defined 'end' the same way there is with Dreavening.
If I'm reorbing once per 8 minutes with 28 people versus once per 10 minutes with 20 people, the difference ends up 14 versus 11 reorbs (first one free). Your statement has an assumption of an artificial ceiling identified on the total quantity of runs per night, which is not an accurate assumption.

You've chosen that self-regulation of 2 hours.

The end is when you've run out of orbs or reached your ghost bucks goals. As you explained, yeah a smaller group means you get X number of less orbs done, meaning it takes more TIME, as in another day of running, to reach your "end" of whatever it happens to be - Total number of orbs, specific ghost bucks amount, gambling for a specific item etc, pick any concept of an "end" you want. It cant be exp because you can only absorb so much for so long, even if you built up a reserve of LTEs its at the expense of not using them elsewear, same with instant absorbs and other methods. The treasure is trash and should hit a hard cap on how many people in a group actually scales the loot table anyway, and it can easily be pooled between groups and split evenly amongst everyone. It really just comes down to ghost bucks and how long it takes to accumulate them, which you are already self-regulating to 2 hours. How much are you impacting yourselves in the short term with generation? Its just as much in your own best interests as it is everyone else's to remove the lag as quickly as possible.

Not everyone re-orbs. Those that do not reorb have a 2 hour time limit.

And they won't be effected, just as they aren't effected now. They can only ever cap at a certain amount of ghost bucks, if it takes them 5 minutes or it takes them a half hour, whats it matter if they stay the whole 2 hours? If I could cap people with ghost bucks with a 10+ level spread in groups of 5-8, you can do it with groups of 10+ at the same level.

At least have the decency to not do it on Guild Night, ffs. I don't care if it takes me an extra two minutes to fry. I do give care if my alt is only getting in half the reps they should during the only few hours per week it makes any sense at all to do reps.

There's some confusion... we've been running Daily Reim runs beyond this calendar year. Realistically, the last 12 months or so since introduction. We have an astronomical amount of documentation and details about each run!

Wednesdays are when the majority of people are available. This coincides with the most interest in farming style events. It was specifically chosen to help as many people's schedules as possible, while providing them the most return and maximizing their enjoyment of the game during their availability. I don't think that's an unreasonable process to determine the date, or an unreasonable request to maximize my participants' enjoyment. This has been officially established on the calendar since May 2017, and people have scheduled around it to ensure that they can participate.

Changing farming to progression will likely not have a substantial participation reduction on a night when the majority of people are available. it will likely just cause sufficient lag across two days, as the people whose timetables align with Wednesdays continue to participate, and those that are interested in farm nights come to another event.

No day that we select is ever going to be perfect. Given the timetables, mechanics, and implications of changing the night, the logistics, paired with the inability to ensure that it will alleviate the concerns with the lag/server stress etc, it's not a worthwhile path to go down.

It occurs to me and I’m sure some of you that likely the best way to fix this issue is to let the client handle a lot of the information dissemination rather than sending third party messaging all in plain text server side as is done in Gemstone and many of the older text games. That’d require a new client and some back end code to shorten the data stream and instruct the client regarding output based on its stored data.

I mean, we know the most efficient solution. It’s been employed by MMOs for years, and been fine tuned for decades thanks largely to early failures and rubberbanding simulators like Star Wars Galaxies.

It also occurs to me that given the most efficient solution here, it draws parallels to these forums, the official forums, and the PC to start with. You’re all pointing fingers at each other saying that what the other is doing is ruining their experience. Knock it off.

Point your fingers in the correct direction, and don’t stop pointing them until the problem gets fixed. And in case you were still wondering, “at each other” is not the correct direction. You might take a look at the company who hasn’t released a client update since 1999.

I'm all for addressing the actual problem, instead of bandaids thrown at it by HOA which negatively impact them. Wyrom said he and on-site people and Retser were going to look into it today, hopefully they can figure out a fix quickly. Whatever changes recently happened that started the lag (because we all can see the calendar, they've been doing this for ages and it's only been a problem in the past few weeks) can maybe be tweaked.

Making this adversarial is ignoring that the problem isn't HOA, it's something recent and on the server-end. We can all get out our pitchforks and torches and slam them, but discouraging large group activities in the game isn't really feasible and completely removing that aspect cuts out a chunk of the player base that loves big group events. I'm nowhere near capping, but I (like I'm sure many other GS players) have played other games and that comraderie that big end-game groups bring is something I miss, and something that has long been missing from Gemstone. I'm happy to see HOA filling that niche.

That said, if it doesn't get fixed quickly, shifting it off of guild night (or perhaps petitioning for guild night to be moved) would be appreciated by many. Saying that moving it will piss off someone doesn't really address that guild night is a BIG DEAL for a good number of players every week. That's not the same as some random CHE/MHO event that occurs once or infrequently.

I can't believe I didn't realize this... Next week starts Ebon Gate.

We NEVER see turnout during official events, we've needed to include disclosures that official events, such as EG, Duskruin, Invasions, etc, end up superseding our events. During Duskruin, we can't even host events! Ebon Gate, being different in nature, I would still expect at most 80% attending during non-merchant week. Merchant week, we probably won't be running at all. So, while Simu is working on it, it shouldn't really be an issue during October. That being said, I understand they're super busy, and we likely won't see too much discretionary dev work during October either to fix it.

That'll match my equaled lack of discretionary spending on the game as well.

@saltysenorita said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

That's not the same as some random CHE/MHO event that occurs once or infrequently.

White Haven's Service Night happens every Wednesday night, for a long time now.

Is this a problem? Absolutely. Am I annoyed by it? 100% Do I blame Whirlin/HoA? Hell no.

This is a recent problem that's cropped up. The GMs are working on it. Nobody should have to change their play style (so long as it's within policy) to accommodate anyone else. Whether the GMs can fix it quickly? I dunno. There are a lot of issues behind the scenes, I'm sure. For now, it is what it is and I hope we see some sort of resolution soon (or EG is gonna SUCK during Reim farming times, considering the number of folks who will likely be logged on).

@0zymandius said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

Nobody should have to change their play style (so long as it’s within policy) to accommodate anyone else

Since they are running long-term scripts and creating heavy scroll during this time, it might be considered against policy since it is causing scroll that is interfering with other's enjoyment. I don't think HoA should be taken to task on Policy, but it is there.

http://www.play.net/gs4/simu_policy.asp

Scroll or carry out any action with a similar disruptive effect. "Scrolling" is defined as repeatedly causing the screen to roll faster than Users are able to type onto it.

See also: Scripting policy

https://gswiki.play.net/Policy#Scripting_Abuse

ANY activity that is deemed by Staff to be disruptive or not in the best interest of the game or its players can be warned when discovered.

@allereli

The scroll is caused by 40+ creatures entering a room. Each player is inputting one command, e.g., inc 908.

You don’t seem to know anything about what we actually do in Reim. Instead, you have this knee-jerk OMGBADSCRIPTERS gut reaction. Is that really your argument? Ugh.

@briarfox said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

The scroll is caused by 40+ creatures entering a room. Each player is inputting one command, e.g., inc 908. You don’t seem to know anything about what we actually do in Reim. Instead, you have this knee-jerk OMGBADSCRIPTERS gut reaction. Is that really your argument? Ugh.

Whirlin cited the scripts as a reason to not break up the group. You are getting 40+ creatures because of the size of the group. I don't know how much clearer I could be when I bolded the part about not believing you guys should be brought up on policy issues. But when policy was brought up, I knew there were at least two sections that addressed it, and shared.

SCRIP. ETHEREAL SCRIP. the Script functions in smaller groups.

I think you mean ghost bucks. It helps when everyone refers to things by their correct name.

Please confirm that implementing "incant 518" once every 82 seconds is the same disruption as "Slap Allereli" every .01 seconds for 82 seconds. Because that's your argument.

@whirlin said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

Please confirm that implementing "incant 518" once every 82 seconds is the same disruption as "Slap Allereli" every .01 seconds for 82 seconds. Because that's your argument.

please don't infer that violence against another player is any solution.

forks any pre-made reorbing scripts already set to return to the plaza (off the beaten path, per request by Retser),

that's your words. I imagine you have other scripts creating scroll while you're in there.

Lol I was going to write up a whole big WORDS post about how the dreavening and the HOA thing are similiar because REASONS and then how Dreaven changed his script and responded maturely, but then I remembered when he freaked out and it completely torpedoed my whole idea.

Short answer, I didnt much have a dog in this fight until sierra came off as a stuck up prick and then you failed to really defend anything other than your own greed in breaking into smaller groups for the betterment of the game. We all know that its Simutronic's fault that things cant handle the game as is. Whatever the cause, poor hardware, poor game engine, poor scripting, and we all know how long it takes for them to respond to things like this so we all just immediately give up that hope and in fight. A good game, a great community, jolly good times.

No, you don’t get to hide behind “but I bolded that I disagreed.” By citing blocks of policy you’re very clearly encouraging people to think about policy bans. To deny that is passive aggressive. To ban us for creating scroll in Reim would be to ban anyone who’s ever fought in an invasion.

@briarfox said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

No, you don’t get to hide behind “but I bolded that I disagreed.” By citing blocks of policy you’re very clearly encouraging people to think about policy bans. To deny that is passive aggressive. To ban us for creating scroll in Reim would be to ban anyone who’s ever fought in an invasion.

take it however you feel, you guys are being inconsiderate and greedy, as well as suggesting violence against me, and only me, when others are also speaking up against your actions, so your feelings aren't really at the top of my list of considerations.

Guys... We're globally disabling 518, 135, 635, 1630,512, 709, 720, 435, 912, 909, and others because it causes too much screen scroll when you cast it.

And screen scroll is against policy. so if you use any of them, you're banned.

@whirlin said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

Guys... We're globally disabling 518, 135, 635, 1630,512, 709, 720, 435, 912, 909, and others because it causes too much screen scroll when you cast it.

the problem isn't the spells on their own, it's a group of 30+ using them in one room for 2 hours at a time.

Oh look, Wyrom backed another smug prick for working with players on external sources, big fucking surprise there.

Where you really always this much of an asshole or now that you have the batphone did you turn into one?

I don't think it is unreasonable to request HOA find a solution until Simu does. HOA knows they are doing it, knows it falls on a day when there are many people trying to take advantage of guild nights, and knows ways to at least alleviate it some. HOA members attacking people for pointing these things out and refusing to change until a better solution is found is very disappointing.

The system limitations are on Simu, and hopefully it can be fixed via code, otherwise I don't see Simu throwing cash at server or client issues.

I also think some of the HoA members have been douchetastic in their response. Just because you want to maximize your return doesn't mean you should take the attitude that it's ok to do so at the expense of everyone else. If you truly feel that way play an offline game. MMO is not for you.

I get Wednesday night is when HoA members have availability to farm Reim, but Guild night is literally the only regularly occurring official bonus the game offers outside Lumnis and fixskills. It has also been going on longer than HoA.

All that said, maybe we should also be asking Simu to think about how it handles Reim, ghost bucks, and rewards purchased through them. If the only legitimate way to obtain an offered reward is to mass spam the event in such a way that almost shuts down the game (because said reward is ridiculously priced and/or currency way to limited), maybe changes need to be made.

@allereli said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

@whirlin said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

Guys... We're globally disabling 518, 135, 635, 1630,512, 709, 720, 435, 912, 909, and others because it causes too much screen scroll when you cast it.

the problem isn't the spells on their own, it's a group of 30+ using them in one room for 2 hours at a time.

This isn't 100% accurate. Spells like 709 which generate a room object for each creature in the room contribute directly to the accumulated lag.

709 should be changed to work like 410. 1 cast, 1 shot to prone everything. No arms in the room.

@alastir said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

@allereli said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

@whirlin said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

Guys... We're globally disabling 518, 135, 635, 1630,512, 709, 720, 435, 912, 909, and others because it causes too much screen scroll when you cast it.

the problem isn't the spells on their own, it's a group of 30+ using them in one room for 2 hours at a time.

This isn't 100% accurate. Spells like 709 which generate a room object for each creature in the room contribute directly to the accumulated lag.

709 should be changed to work like 410. 1 cast, 1 shot to prone everything. No arms in the room.

Then 709 would be identical to 410 which sorcerers already get so what's the point. The nice thing about 709 is the additional knockdowns and pins downs. I'm sure there would be a way to code it without making additional room items, but nerfing what makes it unique is not the way.

@zombiesdontrun said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

@alastir said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

@allereli said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

@whirlin said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

Guys... We're globally disabling 518, 135, 635, 1630,512, 709, 720, 435, 912, 909, and others because it causes too much screen scroll when you cast it.

the problem isn't the spells on their own, it's a group of 30+ using them in one room for 2 hours at a time.

This isn't 100% accurate. Spells like 709 which generate a room object for each creature in the room contribute directly to the accumulated lag.

709 should be changed to work like 410. 1 cast, 1 shot to prone everything. No arms in the room.

Then 709 would be identical to 410 which sorcerers already get so what's the point. The nice thing about 709 is the additional knockdowns and pins downs. I'm sure there would be a way to code it without making additional room items, but nerfing what makes it unique is not the way.

The only thing everyone cares about is reducing lag. Sacrifices have to be made.

Fault aside, we're aware that we're contributing to lag and we'd obviously like to fix that, but we're not willing to stop playing the game to do it. We're talking about solutions that would work for our group (which is large and multi-voiced).

@alastir said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

This isn’t 100% accurate. Spells like 709 which generate a room object for each creature in the room contribute directly to the accumulated lag. 709 should be changed to work like 410. 1 cast, 1 shot to prone everything. No arms in the room.

Yes, but I can cast 709 twice in a swarm when hunting alone and it doesn't cause any noticeable lag for everyone else playing. If Development wants to fix the coding for 709 or any spell, especially one that casts multiple attack spells at once like an AoE, to cause a lesser effect overall on system resources, I'm all for it.

Maybe this is a stupid suggestion, but as a Monk there's about a zero percent chance I get to hit everything in a group of 28. The idea for Reim is to tag every critter once. Maybe a sorcerer can do that easily with a spell. Maybe a wizard. But I'll be damned if a Monk or a warrior can. Mstrike has upper limits.

Would a fair compromise in the interim be to split off the mstrikers from the group into their own big blob, since they're not fully taking advantage of a 28 critter spawn anyway? That slightly hinders the whoever can hit everything at once in a single cast, but shouldn't inconvenience the mstrikers at all, and probably improves lag for everyone in the meantime.

Edit to add: That is, in the event that you continue to utilize this broken system that harms everyone instead of taking the money away until Simutronics fixes it, which is the solution that should be taken advantage of.

@GSPlayer You're ignoring that we've been doing just that from the start. We've been running Reim on a nightly basis for over 10 months. Tuesdays and Wednesdays end up being more popular dates, with or without an official calendar'ed event, averagiong between 15 and 18 participants since we started keeping track on 7/19/2016. Since then we've added rigor to our communication so people are aware of when we're entering, we've been more concrete on timetables on entry, more specific on timetables for progression, more specific on how quickly we progress. Based on unforseen interactions with players, we've established scripts to hold people's hands at a script-pace to reduce the likelihood that a straggler could walk into AoEs, we've established specific areas that we'll stand when working on progression so that we're not standing in the potential way of another Reimer, and scripts have been created to help ensure that people that are cleared already will not explode a critter before people that are not cleared need it. And we made the scripts readily available to the player base, outside of HoA.

When lag was brought up yesterday, we communicated intentions on our discord server, and began testing the combat brief flag to alleviate lag, captured XML logs, and shared them with the GMs to help trouble shoot potential solutions. I'd say at least half the people initiated combatbrief on simultaneously to help reduce lag (of those that verbally verified)

I've gone through restructuring guilds, trying to break a 25 man raid group into two 10 mans. It does not end well. First and foremost, this would ONLY address concerns over farming night. For the reasons for the lag outlined, there is nothing isolated about farming night that would cause more/less lag than a progression night. So whether we're farming/progressing/etc, the same concerns would be noted. Therefore splitting the group into two becomes unfeasible due to a single path to progress to the next area, and potential for overlap on eachother's feet. Additionally, trying to objectively divide up 25 people when it comes to interpersonal conflict, individual power, responsiveness, etc, is not an easy feat. Having seen the shortcomings in attempting to do something in the past unsuccessfully, it's not something that I want to do again in seeing all of the additional drama and management associated with it. If you've done it, it's not something you'd wish upon anyone.

It's also a relatively new thing that it has become a problem, which is causing us to scratch our heads. We've had incredibly successful, minimal lag runs with up to 31 participants multiple times. 28 people causing ridiculously systemic lag does not reconcile with our own datapoints. Something must have changed to reduce this threshold by 10%. We thought we had more time before we were consistently causing a problem on Simu's side... and honestly, so did they. This is not an unknown issue to them, it simply hasn't been the top priority. Considering that yesterday there was an uproar about giftbox item delivery... they're getting pulled in a billion directions. Especially on the eve of Ebon Gate... think of all the additional work they're already trying to do!

We're doing everything we can to support players, support the GMs, support the community, and keep people informed about our actions. I don't think it's unreasonable to state that we don't also restructure our event structure, redesign the calendar that we spent longer than I want to admit planning (even with planning, there was still an ungodly amount of drama), and ask people to change more aspects of their lives. Gemstone has a need for this niche style of MHO dedicated to hunting. That's why we've had the turnout that we've had, and that's why I want to expand upon it. Yes, changes must be made to facilitate something like this, because we've never had anything quite like it in the past, but it's good for the environment to have the options. Yes, there are growing pains that we're working through, just like we did with other people in Reim before, but we'll continue doing things are reasonable without jeopardizing things that we've been worked for.

@flimbo said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

Maybe this is a stupid suggestion, but as a Monk there's about a zero percent chance I get to hit everything in a group of 28. The idea for Reim is to tag every critter once. Maybe a sorcerer can do that easily with a spell. Maybe a wizard. But I'll be damned if a Monk or a warrior can. Mstrike has upper limits.

Would a fair compromise in the interim be to split off the mstrikers from the group into their own big blob, since they're not fully taking advantage of a 28 critter spawn anyway? That slightly hinders the whoever can hit everything at once in a single cast, but shouldn't inconvenience the mstrikers at all, and probably improves lag for everyone in the meantime.

While true, splintering off the Mstrikers would then negatively impact the casters with the proper AoEs that the monks don't have. Additionally, there's an assumption that the same quantity of critters will be in the room by the time your mstrike is calculated, and wasn't already previously killed. Having the higher critters in the room will increase the likelihood that you're FULL mstrike goes off.

Also, monks are absolutely amazing in Reim, and in groups, and are one of my favorites.

@whirlin said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

Also, monks are absolutely amazing in Reim, and in groups, and are one of my favorites.

I know. I am a Monk who has frequently Reimed. One billion kicks in 7 seconds? Yes please. (Edit to add: But yeah, even in a group of just 10 I wasn't able to hit every last thing at least once. Close, but in a group of 28? Forget about it.)

Edit again: And yes, like I said, it's a hindrance for the people who can hit everything once. That's why I called the suggestion a compromise, since currently when you're not being hindered, it hinders the entire game.

You know my stance. Stop paying for Reim until it's fixed. But that's not gonna happen. So a compromise is in order I think until something gives.

@allereli said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

@alastir said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

This isn’t 100% accurate. Spells like 709 which generate a room object for each creature in the room contribute directly to the accumulated lag. 709 should be changed to work like 410. 1 cast, 1 shot to prone everything. No arms in the room.

Yes, but I can cast 709 twice in a swarm when hunting alone and it doesn't cause any noticeable lag for everyone else playing. If Development wants to fix the coding for 709 or any spell, especially one that casts multiple attack spells at once like an AoE, to cause a lesser effect overall on system resources, I'm all for it.

• It's only 709 that is the problem. The other AoE spells don't generate a room object for each creature in the room and linger.

Numerous grotesque limbs in varying states of decay suddenly burst out of the ground! With startling speed and ferocity, the arms grab at whatever they can! The arms snatch viciously at an ethereal peasant, but he avoids their clutches. The arms snatch viciously at an ethereal commoner and pin him to the ground! The arms snatch viciously at an ethereal townsman and pin him to the ground! The arms snatch viciously at an ethereal traveller and pin her to the ground! The arms snatch viciously at an ethereal peasant and pin her to the ground! The arms snatch viciously at an ethereal commoner and pin her to the ground! The arms snatch viciously at an ethereal villager and pin him to the ground! The arms snatch viciously at an ethereal denizen and pin him to the ground! The arms snatch viciously at an ethereal denizen and pin her to the ground! The arms snatch viciously at an ethereal denizen and pin her to the ground! The arms snatch viciously at an ethereal denizen and pin her to the ground! The arms snatch viciously at an ethereal commoner and pin him to the ground! The arms snatch viciously at an ethereal peasant and pin him to the ground! The arms snatch viciously at an ethereal peasant and pin him to the ground! The arms snatch viciously at an ethereal traveller and pin her to the ground! The arms snatch viciously at an ethereal traveller and pin her to the ground! The arms snatch viciously at an ethereal villager and pin him to the ground! The arms snatch viciously at an ethereal traveller and pin her to the ground! The arms snatch viciously at an ethereal townswoman and pin her to the ground! The arms snatch viciously at an ethereal villager and drag him down to the ground! The arms snatch viciously at an ethereal traveller and pin her to the ground! The arms snatch viciously at an ethereal commoner and pin him to the ground!

[Reim Settlement, Village] You notice a dessicated arm, a fleshless arm, a pair of dessicated arms, a pair of flayed arms, a decayed arm, a pair of putrid arms, a bloated arm, a bloated arm, a decayed arm, a bloated arm, a decayed arm, a bloated arm, a putrid arm, a skeletal arm, a decayed arm, a clawed arm, a three-fingered arm, a bloody arm, a pair of clawed arms, a pair of gnarled arms, a dessicated arm

A bloated arm quickly snatches at an ethereal denizen, holding her down before retreating into the ground! A deformed arm quickly snatches at an ethereal traveller, but she escapes the grasp of the arm. The arm flails briefly before decaying into dust. A burnt arm quickly snatches at an ethereal commoner, holding him down before retreating into the ground! A gnarled arm quickly snatches at an ethereal denizen, holding her down before retreating into the ground!

A decayed arm thrashes about briefly before decaying into dust. A putrid arm thrashes about briefly before decaying into dust. A three-fingered arm thrashes about briefly before decaying into dust. A dessicated arm thrashes about briefly before decaying into dust. A decayed arm thrashes about briefly before decaying into dust. A pair of flayed arms thrash about briefly before decaying into dust. A pair of gnarled arms thrash about briefly before decaying into dust. A pair of dessicated arms thrash about briefly before decaying into dust. A bloated arm thrashes about briefly before decaying into dust. A bloated arm thrashes about briefly before decaying into dust. A pair of clawed arms thrash about briefly before decaying into dust. A bloated arm thrashes about briefly before decaying into dust. A decayed arm thrashes about briefly before decaying into dust. A decayed arm thrashes about briefly before decaying into dust. A fleshless arm thrashes about briefly before decaying into dust. A bloody arm thrashes about briefly before decaying into dust. A bloated arm thrashes about briefly before decaying into dust. A skeletal arm thrashes about briefly before decaying into dust. A pair of putrid arms thrash about briefly before decaying into dust. A dessicated arm thrashes about briefly before decaying into dust.

@flimbo said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

@whirlin said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

Also, monks are absolutely amazing in Reim, and in groups, and are one of my favorites.

I know. I am a Monk who has frequently Reimed. One billion kicks in 7 seconds? Yes please. (Edit to add: But yeah, even in a group of just 10 I wasn't able to hit every last thing at least once. Close, but in a group of 28? Forget about it.)

Edit again: And yes, like I said, it's a hindrance for the people who can hit everything once. That's why I called the suggestion a compromise, since currently when you're not being hindered, it hinders the entire game.

You know my stance. Stop paying for Reim until it's fixed. But that's not gonna happen. So a compromise is in order I think until something gives.

We tried having a no orb stance when the changes to the looting pressure, and trading effects went live and hurt us substantially. I really wasn't able to properly enforce it. We currently have 62 premium account members, with potentially more alts, and/or buying orbs. There's a lot. I'd love to enforce it, but there're all addicted gemstoners!

I can't wait to see how they twist this to be Guild nights fault. What's possibly changed on guild night? It's not like they made any meaningful changes to the guilds.

Quote from GM Wyrom: http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Discussions%20with%20Simutronics/The%20Bad,%20and%20the%20Ugly%20(general%20complaints)/view/16024

The lag issues are more related to Guild Night than Reim hunters. It's when both are combined that it is quite noticeable.

Wyrom, PM

I'd shift Reim nights either off of Wednesday, or push it to start at 12AM EST. Late for many, but likely it will draw in a different crowd.

Whoa, you don't want to start stealing people from Kenstrom time now... Because thats high RP time. :BIGGEST EYE ROLL EVER:

I'm not going to begin to understand. But, if guild nights are a substantial drain, we'll have internal discussion about changing Farming night.

However, that being said, farming versus progression nights mean nothing from a system load potential, and I'm uncertain if the required return will actually be realized. I'd prefer additional information regarding anticipated time to implement/fixes/etc before going down that path. Truth be told, we have the month of October to figure it out.

@alastir said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

It’s only 709 that is the problem. The other AoE spells don’t generate a room object for each creature in the room and linger.

I mean, you can twist the whole thing into a nerf sorcerer campaign, or you can ask the sorcerers in your 30+ person group to not use that spell for the stability of the game.

@evarin literally every night is a Reim night for HoA. Wednesdays in particular are farm nights where they don't progress to the boss fight and tend to be well attended.

@allereli said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

@alastir said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

It’s only 709 that is the problem. The other AoE spells don’t generate a room object for each creature in the room and linger.

I mean, you can twist the whole thing into a nerf sorcerer campaign, or you can ask the sorcerers in your 30+ person group to not use that spell for the stability of the game.

The problem isn't the use of the spell, the problem is the design of the spell. If the spell were designed correctly, it wouldn't create the issue.

Interesting discussion.

As to 709: I like the design of the spell, simply because I enjoy the fact that literal arms and stuff pop out of the ground. It looks cool.

Which is important. The spell FEELS different than 410, even if there is not much mechanical difference really. But in design, FEELING different is far more important than actually being different.

As to the HOA/LAG/ETC: Mandatory Plug: Sounds like a prime problem! Plat dont got that BS :)

Seriously though. Looks like theres a lot of contributers here to what is happening. Would simply NOT scripting and only manually inputting your commands help the issue? I honestly do not know. Someone on the Officials mentioned that might be the case but...as I said, I dont know programming.

But if one of the groups causing issues can quickly fix said issues until SIMU gets things right on their end? And they wont because they will get less ghostbucks for the month or three these fixes will take? I'm just sayin...if simply manually inputting commands wont fix things...and guild night people cant really be the ones to move to another night here...maybe you should think about doing something that'll help the majority?

As I said. I dont care. I dont play prime really. Just an observation from the sidelines.

@alastir said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

The problem isn’t the use of the spell, the problem is the design of the spell. If the spell were designed correctly, it wouldn’t create the issue.

except the issue isn't there when solo hunters or smaller groups use it.

@allereli said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

@alastir said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

The problem isn’t the use of the spell, the problem is the design of the spell. If the spell were designed correctly, it wouldn’t create the issue.

except the issue isn't there when solo hunters or smaller groups use it.

Just because one use case is acceptable does not mean the overall design is acceptable

@whirlin said in [Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights]

Just because one use case is acceptable does not mean the overall design is acceptable

just because you can put 30 people in a group to camp in one room, building up a mountain of stuff on the ground, and there's nothing explicitly in policy or group mechanics against it, doesn't mean you should.

If you have a problem with people playing the game the way they want to play the game, within policy, I think it's more telling about you than anything else.

Except, you can make a really strong argument that it's against policy. Even if not the direct cause, the HOA run is the "straw that breaks the camel's back" and entirely within the control of players to cause to happen or not. You could argue - High maintenance - The constant development and GM time required to fix the problems you've caused, any assists or GM interactions from the fallout of any lag or hinderance caused etc. Abusive behavor - You and your members have stated here multiple times that you don't care about anyone elses enjoyment if it means a lessening of your bottom line. I mean, fuck, you REALLY went out of your way to stress this point. Coming off as a cold, calculated robot instead of a real human being. Delays and slowdowns - thats pretty obvious

Woah woah woah whats with the hate on 709 though?

I like 709. Its an interesting spell :\

@whirlin said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

If you have a problem with people playing the game the way they want to play the game, within policy, I think it’s more telling about you than anything else.

I already mentioned how it could be considered outside of policy and how I think the situation could be resolved without resorting to that, including moving guild night around, but Ordim spells it out better:

@ordim said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

Except, you can make a really strong argument that it’s against policy. Even if not the direct cause, the HOA run is the “straw that breaks the camel’s back” and entirely within the control of players to cause to happen or not. You could argue - High maintenance - The constant development and GM time required to fix the problems you’ve caused, any assists or GM interactions from the fallout of any lag or hinderance caused etc. Abusive behavor - You and your members have stated here multiple times that you don’t care about anyone elses enjoyment if it means a lessening of your bottom line. I mean, fuck, you REALLY went out of your way to stress this point. Coming off as a cold, calculated robot instead of a real human being. Delays and slowdowns - thats pretty obvious

@ordim said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

Abusive behavor - You and your members have stated here multiple times that you don't care about anyone elses enjoyment if it means a lessening of your bottom line. I mean, fuck, you REALLY went out of your way to stress this point. Coming off as a cold, calculated robot instead of a real human being.

Seriously this. Going Cartman ("Screw you I do what I want") is pretty poor PR.

EDIT: Especially when you are requesting donations of sancted items in another thread.

I'd actually like to see the scrip/hour difference between one group of 30 and two groups of 15, I'm unable to understand how you'd lose out on too much given the X number of players hitting Y number of mobs. I feel like 15 people have better chances of hitting more mobs before they die than 30 people, even if the number is double due to mass spells, etc.

I don't think asking to split these groups up or, at the very least, run them on a different night is too much to ask. I can assure you, guild nights were being run well before your REIM runs started (having been running rogue guild night as a mentor for nearly 3 years), so it seems a little strange for that to change. There is definitely a compromise to be had here, hopefully the officership of HoA will be willing to work not only with the GMs on a long-term fix, but with the community on a more quickly-implemented, short term one.

What a ridiculous point of view that you would place the entire fault of the broken back on a single straw, as you so eloquently put it lol. By your own analogy, can you not recognize that there are a multitude of other issues that contribute to what you perceive to be an unbearable load for the camel? What gives you the right to point at the final straw and dictate its actions while conveniently ignoring all the pre-existing straws? Would you consider it a reasonable request for your personal preferential play style be altered for the greater good?

@ragz said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

What a ridiculous point of view that you would place the entire fault of the broken back on a single straw, as you so eloquently put it lol. By your own analogy, can you not recognize that there are a multitude of other issues that contribute to what you perceive to be an unbearable load for the camel? What gives you the right to point at the final straw and dictate its actions while conveniently ignoring all the pre-existing straws? Would you consider it a reasonable request for your personal preferential play style be altered for the greater good?

I'm just following the official standpoint of Wyrom on the officials - The HoA combined with guild night is too much for the server. Are there other factors? I'm there are. We are discussing the one factor that we know is 100% within player control - The massive group HoA hunt during guild night, the exact combination that is causing the problem.

If i was in control of one of the factors leading to the cause of the issues, yes I would make a change to reduce or remove that issue. Doubly so if I could find another way to accomplish the same thing I was doing before without impacting other people negatively. I don't really see why its such a hard decision to make, unless you really just don't believe any of that BS about helping the community and the game as a whole because it impacts your bottom line. If massive group hunts in Reim DIDN'T cause lag, we wouldn't even be having this conversation at all.

So theres an Ancient Legend I just made up...theres a highway. Its a pretty old highway...pretty beat up, theres pot holes...a lot of stuffs wrong with it. But man, is it fun to drive down! You can go super quick and see beautiful scenery and its amazing. So its been gaining a bit in popularity, with a lot more traffic recently!

Things have been going smoothly. Theres potholes, yeah, and hiccups, but by and large the people who drive it are satisfied. Little traffic, no wrecks or jams, life is good.

One group of drivers, however, decides they want company on the drive!

So they decide to get 20-30 cars every week and drive in a little caravan. Problem is, the highway is OLD. Its not up to date! So their 20 mph less than the speedlimit drive down this highway, them shouting out the windows, talking, etc on a NORMAL highway? Perfectly fine...wouldnt hold anyone up. But on this highway, this very special highway, it DOES. Its helped to cause a weekly jam!

Would the problem be fixed the highway were 6 lanes instead of 2? Yes. Would it help if there was less traffic in general on this night? Yes.

But this group of drivers...they could just go the speedlimit and maybe break their group up into 3 groups until the potholes get fixed. But they wont. because thats how they like to drive. In fact, how dare you suggest they should change how they drive?! It is, in fact, not THEIR fault the Potholes arent fixed, the lanes arent wider, their arent more lanes...and really if there was less traffic on this highways on their special family friendship drive time the problem wouldnt exist.

Of course this was all bullshit excuses so the other drivers all murdered the group of slow drivers. No one felt bad and the cops actually applauded their initiative.

Now a parade is held in their honor every week...which still doesnt block up the traffic as much as the Special Family Fun drivers did!

The End.

@hjfudge said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

So theres an Ancient Legend I just made up...theres a highway. Its a pretty old highway...pretty beat up, theres pot holes...a lot of stuffs wrong with it. But man, is it fun to drive down! You can go super quick and see beautiful scenery and its amazing. So its been gaining a bit in popularity, with a lot more traffic recently!

Things have been going smoothly. Theres potholes, yeah, and hiccups, but by and large the people who drive it are satisfied. Little traffic, no wrecks or jams, life is good.

One group of drivers, however, decides they want company on the drive!

So they decide to get 20-30 cars every week and drive in a little caravan. Problem is, the highway is OLD. Its not up to date! So their 20 mph less than the speedlimit drive down this highway, them shouting out the windows, talking, etc on a NORMAL highway? Perfectly fine...wouldnt hold anyone up. But on this highway, this very special highway, it DOES. Its helped to cause a weekly jam!

Would the problem be fixed the highway were 6 lanes instead of 2? Yes. Would it help if there was less traffic in general on this night? Yes.

But this group of drivers...they could just go the speedlimit and maybe break their group up into 3 groups until the potholes get fixed. But they wont. because thats how they like to drive. In fact, how dare you suggest they should change how they drive?! It is, in fact, not THEIR fault the Potholes arent fixed, the lanes arent wider, their arent more lanes...and really if there was less traffic on this highways on their special family friendship drive time the problem wouldnt exist.

Of course this was all bullshit excuses so the other drivers all murdered the group of slow drivers. No one felt bad and the cops actually applauded their initiative.

Now a parade is held in their honor every week...which still doesnt block up the traffic as much as the Special Family Fun drivers did!

The End.

Clearly we should reroute all other traffic off the road so that "Special Family Fun" drivers don't need to make any changes. It's unfair to ask them to take any ownership of how their actions impact others.

Your analogy assumes we only run Reim once a night, we have been running nightly for 10 months.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1R7VYs0KNjpHlqSISU007X3XkSqX6ap6k_2mWfBVnP78/edit?usp=sharing

@whirlin How dare you question my parable!?

Did Jesus have his parables questioned? No! In fact, they celebrated him by...oh wait, he was murderized too huh? Damn.

@ragz said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

Would you consider it a reasonable request for your personal preferential play style be altered for the greater good?

yes. I equate it to recycling and caring for the environment.

@whirlin said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

Your analogy assumes we only run Reim once a night, we have been running nightly for 10 months.

I'll crosspost this from the officials, bc it responds to this nicely:

I didn't know that you guys had an event every night. I'm still not clear whether you're saying that HotA server stress is the same every single night or if it's present every night with a spike on Wednesdays.

the difference, unless I'm mistaken, is that on Wednesdays they stay in one room, building up a pile of junk/treasure, with more people than other nights, and on other nights they progress through the quest in a more timely fashion and don't build up the same number of items on the ground.

please correct me and I apologize if I am wrong. Here are the relevant parts of the event descriptions from the calendar:

Capped Reim Farming (Wed):

This run will not focus on progression, but will enable participants to stay in the first area, and burn as many charges of Reim orbs as they want! Gather up that Ethereal Scrip!

Weekly capped Reiming (Tue):

We will begin progression at 8:45 promptly, and move to clear the instance quickly.

@hjfudge said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

@whirlin How dare you question my parable!?

Did Jesus have his parables questioned? No! In fact, they celebrated him by...oh wait, he was murderized too huh? Damn.

Nah, I get it... people just seem to constantly be ignoring the fact that we've been running every day to 10 months, and yes, it's been a problem the past two weeks, and we're working on fixing it. And seem to think that it's something that WE changed/etc. It's getting old.

@whirlin

By your own admission Wedenesday night runs are different than daily runs. Every other day you do full progression. On Wednesday night's you camp 1 room with a lot of people (which you admit you picked that night to maximize participation) and spawn wave after wave. Don't change the facts to fit your argument. Your daily Reim hunts are not the same as your Wednesday night Reim hunts.

Progression nights still generate X critters per participant every 82-85 seconds, still using the same attacks, etc. The only difference is where they are being done.

@allereli said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

the difference, unless I'm mistaken, is that on Wednesdays they stay in one room, building up a pile of junk/treasure, with more people than other nights, and on other nights they progress through the quest in a more timely fashion and don't build up the same number of items on the ground.

Nothing is piled up, looting is happening consistently along with searching, just like progression night, the room is fully clear before the next wave spawns 82 seconds later. Everything is sacked, and sacks given to participants until we're ready to sell at the end, just like a progression night.

Urgh, that would be miserable to let stuff pile up

ughhh

So I am ~~~LITERALLY~~~ having this exact same discussion in work in weekly meetings.

Hardware - "Your shit software is slow, fix it. We do the same thing every day in and day out and it's gotten worse!" software - "well, you see we have some hard numbers here on the amount of users etc and it turns out that the number of users went up by 5% before the slowness hit" back and forth and turns out that welp the software is shit and thats the number of users where our SQL backend shits itself.

How does that tie in to this whole conversation? Sure, you've done the same thing, and you have the numbers of people participating. As Wyrom likes to trot out, there are more subscriptions, more people playing, everyone sees the number of logged in users going up. It's been pointed out its a combination of your event + guilds/guild night causing the problem. It might be because there is a 5% increase in the amount of people doing guild work, even with your numbers going down slightly. Either way, its gotten to the point it impacts everyone else. People are busting your balls because A) You can potentially make a quick meaningful change that might help ease the issue while it (hopefully) is being worked on in the background B) Instead of approaching it from a standpoint of helping others, immediately circled the wagons, attacked other people for "How you play the game" and all other manner of "fuck you got mine" responses which won you few if any fans.

Our membership and participation increase over time since inception has been 0.02 people per day. The growth that you're proposing is not realistic.

@whirlin said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

Progression nights still generate X critters per participant every 82-85 seconds, still using the same attacks, etc. The only difference is where they are being done.

Well fortunately this can all be handled with Science.
Hypothesis: HoA Wednesday night runs are correlated to high lag on Wednesday night's.

Methodology: Observe lag on a Wednesday night when HoA does a Reim run and a Wednesday night when they do not.

There it's testable and only requires your group to forgoe one farming session. If there is no change you can tell us all to go Fuck ourselves (though many in your group already have). If there is a change then you'd have to recognize the correlation. Note I said correlation not causation because o recognize that an effect can have many causes.

And, I've given multiple explanations why the two proposals of splitting the group and different days are crappy recommendations. We're willing to work with people to fix, but pretending that your ideas are steller and end are are insulting, and a level of engagement and reading comprehension that mirrors Crime.

@Wyrom already said they're working on it. It's probably blasphemous to say this, but why not let them try to fix it on SIMU's side instead of everyone going bat shit crazy in the mean time.

Yes my completely made up and pulled from my ass numbers don't match your own... who the fuck is Crime level now?

Your reasons are "I don't want to" and "fuck you got mine". You can't argue anything else, we've already gone down that road and you bailed and went in a different direction. You even did the math. Its about you getting to do 2 extra orb runs.

...I kinda like the Science idea.

Maybe its got super little to do with HoA. So take a week off. See what happens. If nothing happens? You're good. Do what you do.

If the lag eases up...well, then you can try different methods to isolate the issue. Troubleshooting!

@whirlin

A lot of crappy things we have to do are because we live in a community. I personally hate mowing the lawn but my neighbors prefer that I do it (And I live in Florida so that's a year round obligation). So I mow my friggin yard every week (I get away with 2 weeks in the "winter") not because I give a shit about it but because my neighbors shouldn't have to live with my selfish choices. Sure I could hire someone to do it for me, but I'm cheap so I don't. Since all my choices are crappy I picked the least crappy one. I also pay taxes, use turn signals, and a bunch of other things I wouldn't do if I was the only person in the world.

This kind of science is akin to B.O.B. invoking physics to deny the curvature of the earth.

In a compromise both parties give up something. What is anyone giving up besides those that have been dubbed "the final straw?"

How about a donation to extend guild night beyond Wednesdays to account for any perceived loss in guild progress time? Who would be willing to go in on this with me as a show of good faith while the staff is diligently pursuing a long term fix?

@ragz

Just because you don't like my suggestion does not make it FAKE science. I proposed a testable hypothesis which would generate measurable data that could be repeated. I may not remember everything from college but I remember the elements of a valid experiment.

As to your suggestion to donate a guild night. Finally an attempt at a compromise. Helpful hint, maybe start with the low hanging olive branch first before you move into we play how we want.

I personally didn't really care that much about the lag but I certainly did not appreciate the attitude by those who likely contributed to it.

@ragz

@ragz said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

This kind of science is akin to B.O.B. invoking physics to deny the curvature of the earth.

In a compromise both parties give up something. What is anyone giving up besides those that have been dubbed "the final straw?"

How about a donation to extend guild night beyond Wednesdays to account for any perceived loss in guild progress time? Who would be willing to go in on this with me as a show of good faith while the staff is diligently pursuing a long term fix?

So...you wont even give up a single day? Just to see? You wont stop what you are doing ONCE, ONE TIME, for ONE DAY.

Interesting.

Short of paying cash (lol) to get another guild night form, there isn't much, if anything, that can be done from a player's standpoint on guild night. You have a group of people who only share "doing random unconnected guild work" as their connector verses a group who are part of the same MHO doing the same thing as part of their focused event. Which of those two, as a player, has a better chance of being altered with any realistic chance of success?

You know what would be interesting, player-specific guild night options. You pick when you get your 8/7/6 whatever hours of double benefits. Let players form up times throughout the week to come together.

Eliminate all guilds

@ordim said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

Short of paying cash (lol) to get another guild night form, there isn't much, if anything, that can be done from a player's standpoint on guild night. You have a group of people who only share "doing random unconnected guild work" as their connector verses a group who are part of the same MHO doing the same thing as part of their focused event. Which of those two, as a player, has a better chance of being altered with any realistic chance of success?

You know what would be interesting, player-specific guild night options. You pick when you get your 8/7/6 whatever hours of double benefits. Let players form up times throughout the week to come together.

Or just splitting guild nights, a few classes per night.

@whirlin said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

And, I've given multiple explanations why the two proposals of splitting the group and different days are crappy recommendations. We're willing to work with people to fix, but pretending that your ideas are steller and end are are insulting, and a level of engagement and reading comprehension that mirrors Crime.

I've read your explanations about two separate groups and honestly, without any data to back any of it up, they seem more like excuses than sound reasoning. I'd also challenge you to at least try having a thicker skin in your online sorties, if something as innocuous as a recommendation is insulting.

@whirlin said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

@ordim said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

Short of paying cash (lol) to get another guild night form, there isn't much, if anything, that can be done from a player's standpoint on guild night. You have a group of people who only share "doing random unconnected guild work" as their connector verses a group who are part of the same MHO doing the same thing as part of their focused event. Which of those two, as a player, has a better chance of being altered with any realistic chance of success?

You know what would be interesting, player-specific guild night options. You pick when you get your 8/7/6 whatever hours of double benefits. Let players form up times throughout the week to come together.

Or just splitting guild nights, a few classes per night.

Sure, a great option. There are lots of things we could theory craft, but as players, we can't do shit to change that side of it. You and your MHO CAN make changes.

@ragz said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

In a compromise both parties give up something. What is anyone giving up besides those that have been dubbed "the final straw?"

What can we, the Non HoA player base control that contributes significantly to the lag without interfering with normal game play? Can we control what night is guild night? And even if we could the same you picked Wednesday night to farm Reim is probably the same reason why Wednesday is guild night?

Obviously we can't fix Simu coding issues or server issues.

What else is left? Service nights? Dreavenings? Do you think that your Reim farming should come before those services? Especially since both predate your May 2017 farming nights?

Compromise is just one negotiation strategy and it isn't always the best one. But first you have to acknowledge the problem and be willing to take ownership for the solution.

@whirlin said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

@ordim said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

Short of paying cash (lol) to get another guild night form, there isn't much, if anything, that can be done from a player's standpoint on guild night. You have a group of people who only share "doing random unconnected guild work" as their connector verses a group who are part of the same MHO doing the same thing as part of their focused event. Which of those two, as a player, has a better chance of being altered with any realistic chance of success?

You know what would be interesting, player-specific guild night options. You pick when you get your 8/7/6 whatever hours of double benefits. Let players form up times throughout the week to come together.

Or just splitting guild nights, a few classes per night.

Given that the buff for guild nights is once a week, during a set time... you're asking to have multiple guild nights run for specific guilds... which requires more coding and setup. That's OK, but splitting up your REIM farm group is insulting to you? The mind boggles.

http://forums.play.net/forums/GemStone%20IV/Paid%20Events:%20Adventures,%20Quests,%20and%20SimuCoins/The%20Settlement%20of%20Reim/view/913

Hello everyone,

The total number of creature spawns per room will be capped out until further notice. The total amount capped is subject to change and will be monitored.

Except it's already been told that it's a combination of HoA Reim runs (ran every night at 8:30pm) and guild nights (ran Wednesdays). If you remove one, doesn't matter which, the odds of no lag happening is going to happen. The issue comes down to EVERYONE wanting to have enjoyment at the same time the way each person wants to have that enjoyment. It's not possible in the current state of the game server to be able to make EVERYONE happy. If we the players come up with a solution one side is going to lose the enjoyment they would want or expect. Is that fair, no, will it make people pissed off at each other, more than likely yes.

The only real solution should be Simutronics instead of us as a playerbase trying to hash it all out. Whether that is Simu converting normal Reim into limited group sizes, capping monster spawns, moving guild night, making guild night personal ala Lumnis, improving server performance, whatever. As has been said though, Wyrom is discussing it. Hopefully he'll post what he was able to brainstorm with the other GMs soon so we can work towards whatever solution is proposed.

And as I'm posting this it looks like Simu finally decided on a temp fix of capping creatures per spawn. So we'll see how that goes. Can't wait to see what that is.

As for service nights and Dreavenings your group could work with them to lessen the impact.

Talk to the house officers and try to arrange the schedules so that service nights end before your farming begings. Also you could volunteer at these nights to help them go more.quickly so they are done before farming begins.

As for Dreavenings they are once every 4ish hours. Your event lasts 2. Pretty sure it would be possible to work together to make sure both don't happen at once.

All of it requires HoA working together with others and, in the end, may not be enough. But the ball for most of this lies in your court.

@horibu

As is often the case, when Simu fixes something, no one wins.

Holy fuck people!

This issue just started affecting the game during Guild Nights a few weeks ago from what I know. Instead of pointing fingers at one another let's find where the cause of this is coming from.

Looking back at the data in the spreadsheet and some attendance records not on there, 9/6 had 28 people; 9/13 had 27 people,; 9/20 had 34 people; 9/27 had 27 people. HoA has done Reim nights with groups of this size before, both farming and progression, without seeing the noticeable lag that is currently being seen.

If it has not been a problem prior to this, what has changed to make it into one now?

Have Guild Nights been seeing higher attendance as our population increases?

Are there other things going on in the game where people are gathering together in a single room ?

Let's work together and figure out what has changed so a well-informed decision can be reached on how to progress from here until Simu is able to better stabilize their servers in a persistent, non-instanced world.

@durakar said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

Holy fuck people!

This issue just started affecting the game during Guild Nights a few weeks ago from what I know. Instead of pointing fingers at one another let's find where the cause of this is coming from.

Looking back at the data in the spreadsheet and some attendance records not on there, 9/6 had 28 people; 9/13 had 27 people,; 9/20 had 34 people; 9/27 had 27 people. HoA has done Reim nights with groups of this size before, both farming and progression, without seeing the noticeable lag that is currently being seen.

If it has not been a problem prior to this, what has changed to make it into one now?

Have Guild Nights been seeing higher attendance as our population increases?

Are there other things going on in the game where people are gathering together in a single room ?

Let's work together and figure out what has changed so a well-informed decision can be reached on how to progress from here until Simu is able to better stabilize their servers in a persistent, non-instanced world.

You might be a little late, it looks like Simu already stepped in and dealt with the situation.

@riend That's what I get for being at work all day and not signing into here on my phone. Oh well, hopefully they'll get it straight.

@durakar said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

@riend That's what I get for being at work all day and not signing into here on my phone. Oh well, hopefully they'll get it straight.

HOW DARE YOU WORK.

@riend said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

@durakar said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

Holy fuck people!

This issue just started affecting the game during Guild Nights a few weeks ago from what I know. Instead of pointing fingers at one another let's find where the cause of this is coming from.

Looking back at the data in the spreadsheet and some attendance records not on there, 9/6 had 28 people; 9/13 had 27 people,; 9/20 had 34 people; 9/27 had 27 people. HoA has done Reim nights with groups of this size before, both farming and progression, without seeing the noticeable lag that is currently being seen.

If it has not been a problem prior to this, what has changed to make it into one now?

Have Guild Nights been seeing higher attendance as our population increases?

Are there other things going on in the game where people are gathering together in a single room ?

Let's work together and figure out what has changed so a well-informed decision can be reached on how to progress from here until Simu is able to better stabilize their servers in a persistent, non-instanced world.

You might be a little late, it looks like Simu already stepped in and dealt with the situation.

Dealt with it temporarily you mean, as they only capped the amount of REIM spawns per room for the meantime to cut down on the lag, presumably until they have a better idea of what exactly is driving the lag on both the REIM side and Guild night side.

@viekn My vote would be a 25 year old game engine.

Is it time for Gemstone V: Wrath of Kenstrom?

I bet the problem is O(n^2) and even O(n^3) growth. If you have n players in a room doing guild reps constantly, that results in n^2 events being sent by the server for each unit of time. Even worse, if you have n players and n mobs in a room, and all the players are constantly AOEing, you have n^3 events for each unit of time. (For example: 5 players, 5 mobs. Each player AOEs, generating 25 total mob hits. Each hit is in turn sent to all 5 players, resulting in 150 events. Not too bad... but with 30 players and 30 mobs, it's 27000 events. It gets very silly very quickly as you keep going up.)

Yep, sure would. Would be better if they could seperate Reim over to a dedicated server or virtual server or something where when the resource limit is capped it doesn't lag out the rest of the game.

I'd even go farther for this and do each city and surrounding hunting in its own virtual server, pairing up some of the ones that see less people around it. And then put festivals into their own virtual server as well. Limit where the issues occur and it can even help in tracking down and hopefully resolving those at some point.

Simplistic idea, those who know more about how this would be accomplished can weigh in with better terminology.

That doesn't sound even remotely possible with how the game engine is structured. Reim isn't a true "instance" as many people think of an instance in gaming terminology. The different levels of Reim are just the exact same rooms copy/pasted 4 times and each one set to spawn specific ranges of critters. If they could TRUELY instance the game on different servers etc, then yes that would probably cut down on a lot. Given the limited number of people and the costs involved in that, I wouldn't ever expect that to happen.

@briarfox said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

We're very responsive and inclusive. Making us out to be the bad guys because we're a big, easy target and w're playing the game in a way you don't like isn't going to fly.

@briarfox Responsive would be stopping what you are doing until a fix can be found. Instead it seems like you are ruining the game experience for literally the entire game so that you can farm your armor faster. You are the bad guys in this situation.

I don't play these nights so it doesn't affect me but if I did I would be pissed at you that for a 2 hr block the game is unplayable because you want your armor faster.

Talk to the house officers and try to arrange the schedules so that service nights end before your farming begings.

I would hesitate to re-schedule White Haven's service night again, as we did so fairly recently (from Thursdays to Wednesdays). It sounds like things are going to calm down a bit due to Ebon gate, and Retser has already posted on the officials that he has capped the max number of spawns per room. So I'm confident the situation will be resolved soon. If we're still experiencing issues in November, I'll sit down with the officers to discuss another re-schedule.

Holy crap, this thread blew up.

Anyway, my one four-critter mstrike every critter wave is causing all the lag.

I'm less annoyed about the lag and more annoyed about the dropoff in capped players helping out on Guild Night since HOA started becoming big on Wednesdays.

The lag sucks for all parties; no question.

But come on folks. Whirlin and the other members should be patted on the back for encouraging cooperative play at cap. All this negativity being directed at them is silly. We need to encourage groups like this, not accuse them of "ruining" the game for everyone.

@kaight said in Hand of the Arkati causes massive lag on Wednesday Nights:

We need to encourage groups like this, not accuse them of “ruining” the game for everyone.

no one suggested that. people suggested that, as they were identified as a cause of the lag, and since they have more control over their schedule than those who wish to do guild night, that they should take action to alleviate the pressure on game system until Simu could address hardware issues.

After getting several messages last night saying I should pay attention to this topic I spent the morning reading it.

I have no idea how this thread spiraled so quickly into such horrible attacks on each other.

this was clearly a Product problem and not a Player problem, and no one in the community should expect to deal with the current level of unreasonable lag. Instead of coming together, waiting for the Official Response, and if it was not strong enough standing united with each other and saying, "Hey Simu if you want to increasingly keep cashing in our community, you had better reinvest in it." everyone drew lines in the sand and divided the player base and now people have probably worsened impressions of each other.

Can you imagine if a new player was sent here with hope of being welcomed into this community?

All of you are here with the premises that you wanted something more out of participation in our community, and I can enforce a CoC, but it is up to every member of this community to make the community itself better

This topic is fully explored, i'm personally sad to have read it.