To GMs: Any chance we could get 3x spiritual lores?

@Estild (and anyone else working on clerics if you're out there)

I've been wondering about this for months for too many reasons to go into right now, but right now what's on my mind are the MIU changes. If there's a 0% chance of being able to change any training caps for any profession, I'd at least be glad to hear a straight answer on that... But just to explain what I'm thinking in case there's even a slim possibility:

At first the Spike Thorn item in Duskruin had me excited, and I did buy one, but now it makes me sad the longer I think about it. If I were playing a sorceress, sure, I could sink 150-200 ranks into Summoning and have a blast with that item all while not (at least as far as I know) sacrificing any power in sorcerer base or any profession-defining abilities because of my lore choices.

Instead I'm playing a cleric, though, and even if I fixskilled specifically for this item there's no way my character who's a master of spiritual magic could be as good as a sorceress at using a spiritual item containing a spiritual spell that benefits from spiritual lores. At least not unless I decided to give up profession-defining abilities like full chrisms and intercession.

Then add on top of it that sorcerers have 2x elemental lores and empaths have 2x mental lores, so they have two spheres of magical items to use, and it seems like clerics (and wizards) got the short end of the stick with these MIU changes.

I'm fine with only benefiting from one lore sphere, but then I at least want to be noticeably better at that one sphere than the hybrid spiritual professions. Which 3x lores would demonstrate!

-stare- rangers have spike thorn innate and have 1x lores and have to choose between Summoning or Blessing or suck at both.

Rangers can also only 1x MIU and Arcane scrolls.

So please tell us how getting a rangers innate best attack spell in a stick is going to help you.

By all means, ask for more lore so you can use rangers innate spells while rangers can only 1x lores.

Tell me how 3x lore is going to work for you.......

Aurach

Or instead of getting all snide and attacky, maybe add the suggestion that rangers also maybe could get the ability to 2x lores, because why not? It's clearly a post post post cap goal either way. No leveling ranger is going to have 150 ranks of lores even if it were possible.

Also while we're on the subject, I think Monks should also be able to 2x lores! for more armor! But that's unrelated.

Just Clerics and Rangers for now.

FYI wizards have asked for the exact same thing this year and were told that it was all by design and not changing.

Ranger capped CS 480 ranger sphere CS 402 minor spirit 1x miu ,1x arcane scrolls ``` You wave your slim rod at a forest trali. 1d100: 7 + Modifiers: 247 == 254 CS: +410 - TD: +162 + CvA: +11 + d100: +63 == +322 Warding failed! ... 55 points of damage! Strike to the forest trali's throat removes it! A forest trali collapses upon the ground and the life fades from his eyes. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

You wave your thin rod at a forest trali. 1d100: 92 + Modifiers: 283 == 375

CS: +408 - TD: +156 + CvA: +11 + d100: +84 == +347 Warding failed! Massive internal disruption for 100 points of damage! ... 35 points of damage! Larynx swells and explodes, but the forest trali won't be needing it anymore anyway. A forest trali collapses upon the ground and the life fades from her eyes. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds. ```

Trying a minor elemental and a sorcerer spell in rods. An amazing 6 and 8 CS gain.

Rangers were totally left high and dry with the Arcane and MIU update. Our 1x lore, and 1x miu and arcane scrolls leaves us in the unique position of sucking.

But glad to see other professions can use the rods rangers make effectively, even with outside profession spells.

While we are at it, lets sell the rangers best attack spell and ask for more lore to use it better.

You have not seen snide and attacky yet.

Aurach

use ``` (key to the left of 1) above and below the lines you want to paste and maintain format.

Thank you Allereli, let me try to edit it

Rolfard the Sorcerer casting Sunburst from scroll Rolfard raises his green scroll and gestures. Sparks begin to fly between the green scroll and Rolfard's fingers. With a sudden burst of enthusiasm, the sparks jump into Rolfard's hand and he seems to glow with power. J> Rolfard gestures at you. A sudden burst of bright light emanates from Rolfard's hand right in your face! CS: +470 - TD: +422 + CvA: -18 + d100: +76 - -5 == +111 Warding failed! You reel and stumble under the intense flare of light!

Spike Thorn isn't a spiritual spell, though, it's a ranger spell.

@Destrier

Rangers (and all other professions) can pretty easily use two of a cleric's best innate spells, Bravery and Heroism, via items and scrolls. Even with 0 Blessings they get 40 AS while a typical cleric would get 46 or 48 (at thresholds for full chrisms or group 219), so a ranger basically makes use of these two spells almost exactly as well as a cleric would. And I don't have any issue with that.

As for 616, I don't want a cleric to be able to use Spike Thorn as well as a ranger, just as well as a sorcerer or empath. While we don't know exactly how MIU works with 616, I'd imagine that even a cleric who went all the way to the extreme and pushed Summoning to 303 ranks wouldn't compare to an equally post-cap ranger who was full 2x spells, due to indoor penalties (which is almost every post-cap area) and no benefits from overtraining ranger base.

@Flimbo

Believe me, there are lots of training caps I'd love to see reevaluated. In an earlier draft I even started listing them out, but deleted them because it's beyond the scope of the thread...

@allereli

Disappointing, I would have wanted that for wizards too.

@idlewanderlust

Ranger base is spiritual--635 gets the full CS bonus from charges of 340.

(In fact, 635 is probably the best beneficiary of 340 and I'm not sure anything even comes close. If chrism holders are ever sold off the shelf again, watch out...)

Bravery and heroism are a share sphere between Empaths and Clerics. Not exclusive to clerics nor the best innate cleric spells IMO.

Since hardly any of us use 635 regularly because we kill players. Using 340 on the rare times it is used, seems a bit of a stretch compared to selling rangers signature attack spell to any with BS and then asking for a change to Lore for an entire profession to use said item better.

Guess I should petition for 20x raise dead rods, and 2x lore?

Chism holders only are also not holy symbols. Unless I am missing how you plan on using it. But a chism is not used for 340, a holy symbol is, with limited charges.

Having been told flat out at Simucon, nothing is going on for rangers. You are going to have to pardon my reluctance on seeing my profession reduced to casting mass hues and mobility. Oh wait, those are available on scrolls and items also.

Guess it does not matter anymore, enjoy Gemstone.

Aurach

Chrism holders are holy symbols of the Arkati they represent. Not many know that, but try it with the recent ones from Delirium Manor if you still have any. (Not counting unaligned chrism holders, of course.)

For everything else you said... I'm not going to defend my stances on 211 or 215 or anything else further, though I could, because I respect you and I don't want to miss the forest for the trees by disputing every little thing. Here's the forest:

I completely understand not liking your spell being given away, but it's already been given away for two professions. If I had picked an empath or sorcerer on the profession screen, I wouldn't be here posting that I'd like to be better at using the new 616 item--instead I'd already be using it with 160 Summoning.

Also, I want to stress that the 616 item isn't my only reason and definitely not my top reason for wanting 3x lores. I went with that because it was topical and maybe that was a mistake. I'll name two others:

1 - Clerics (and wizards) run out of post-cap goals more quickly than empaths and sorcerers due to only benefiting from a single sphere of lore, so I'd like something else to train.

2 - Empaths with 1x lore have a stronger and cheaper single-target kill spell (based on this)) than clerics with 2x lore, so we should have advantages in other areas like the 100s and 200s circles.

@leafiara said in To GMs: Any chance we could get 3x spiritual lores?:

@Estild (and anyone else working on clerics if you're out there)

I've been wondering about this for months for too many reasons to go into right now, but right now what's on my mind are the MIU changes. If there's a 0% chance of being able to change any training caps for any profession, I'd at least be glad to hear a straight answer on that... But just to explain what I'm thinking in case there's even a slim possibility:

At first the Spike Thorn item in Duskruin had me excited, and I did buy one, but now it makes me sad the longer I think about it. If I were playing a sorceress, sure, I could sink 150-200 ranks into Summoning and have a blast with that item all while not (at least as far as I know) sacrificing any power in sorcerer base or any profession-defining abilities because of my lore choices.

Instead I'm playing a cleric, though, and even if I fixskilled specifically for this item there's no way my character who's a master of spiritual magic could be as good as a sorceress at using a spiritual item containing a spiritual spell that benefits from spiritual lores. At least not unless I decided to give up profession-defining abilities like full chrisms and intercession.

Then add on top of it that sorcerers have 2x elemental lores and empaths have 2x mental lores, so they have two spheres of magical items to use, and it seems like clerics (and wizards) got the short end of the stick with these MIU changes.

I'm fine with only benefiting from one lore sphere, but then I at least want to be noticeably better at that one sphere than the hybrid spiritual professions. Which 3x lores would demonstrate!

Having only 3 lores to juggle must be nice. :/

My take is that if something like this was done, I'd rather the overhaul be something like allowing all characters to reach 2x in each lore and treat them as separate skills.

Miu changes weren't intended to address anything about lore though, it was about being able to make warding checks.

That being said, remember that clerics should be at a 1/3 lore penalty when using the spell. Profession spells have a steep lore penalty. So even a cleric that 2xs summoning is still worse than a ranger that 1xs it.

That'd be neat. Just remove the link lores have. That'd make for some very attainable post cap goals while still maintaining more of the balance intended by limitations on lores in the first place than say, upping the limit would.

@archsenex said in To GMs: Any chance we could get 3x spiritual lores?:

My take is that if something like this was done, I'd rather the overhaul be something like allowing all characters to reach 2x in each lore and treat them as separate skills.

Yeah, this could work too. The only thing that makes me waver is that it does sacrifice character uniqueness since people would eventually make their way to 2x everything, though. In the long run (a very long run, admittedly!) you have a paladin who's simultaneously built for Zealot and Divine Shield, a sorcerer who's maxed both ensorcelling and all combat spells, etc.

But maybe that'll be alright after those post-cap goals get implemented. Always looking for ways to keep characters unique within a profession!

Miu changes weren't intended to address anything about lore though, it was about being able to make warding checks.

Yeah, and that's its own can of worms.

I'm aiming to buy the 20/day Bind item from this DR too and if I'm doing the math right, I'll have 450 major spiritual CS with it when I get to 202 MIU ranks. Meanwhile, if I got to 303 spell ranks with a typical 166/70/67 split, I'd only have 444 CS casting it myself.

Silly, but hey, if that's to my advantage then I'm going for it.

@leafiara said in To GMs: Any chance we could get 3x spiritual lores?:

@archsenex said in To GMs: Any chance we could get 3x spiritual lores?:

My take is that if something like this was done, I'd rather the overhaul be something like allowing all characters to reach 2x in each lore and treat them as separate skills.

Yeah, this could work too. The only thing that makes me waver is that it does sacrifice character uniqueness since people would eventually make their way to 2x everything, though. In the long run (a very long run, admittedly!) you have a paladin who's simultaneously built for Zealot and Divine Shield, a sorcerer who's maxed both ensorcelling and all combat spells, etc.

But maybe that'll be alright after those post-cap goals get implemented. Always looking for ways to keep characters unique within a profession!

Miu changes weren't intended to address anything about lore though, it was about being able to make warding checks.

Yeah, and that's its own can of worms.

I'm aiming to buy the 20/day Bind item from this DR too and if I'm doing the math right, I'll have 450 major spiritual CS with it when I get to 202 MIU ranks. Meanwhile, if I got to 303 spell ranks with a typical 166/70/67 split, I'd only have 444 CS casting it myself.

Silly, but hey, if that's to my advantage then I'm going for it.

If you can native the spell, it will use your native CS. Items won't help you.

I bet lores aren't included in Gemstone V.

@archsenex said in To GMs: Any chance we could get 3x spiritual lores?:

If you can native the spell, it will use your native CS. Items won't help you.

That's not my understanding from here:

"The system will use either your natural spell bonuses (known spells) or your arcane symbols ranks, whichever is higher, but they won't combine with each other. If you have a bonus of 423 from your spiritual spells, but a 450 CS from arcane symbols, your arcane symbols value will be used. If, on the other hand, you have a 423 bonus from your spiritual spells, but only a 327 CS from your arcane symbol contribute, your spell bonus will be used."

@leafiara said in To GMs: Any chance we could get 3x spiritual lores?:

@archsenex said in To GMs: Any chance we could get 3x spiritual lores?:

If you can native the spell, it will use your native CS. Items won't help you.

That's not my understanding from here:

"The system will use either your natural spell bonuses (known spells) or your arcane symbols ranks, whichever is higher, but they won't combine with each other. If you have a bonus of 423 from your spiritual spells, but a 450 CS from arcane symbols, your arcane symbols value will be used. If, on the other hand, you have a 423 bonus from your spiritual spells, but only a 327 CS from your arcane symbol contribute, your spell bonus will be used."

That example is for an outside spell though. Estild has posted that native should bypass Miu entirely (otherwise Wizards and sorcs should be Imbedding their lesser elemental spells from now on).

I'd get confirmation in your scenario before committing.

Then that's even stranger since sorcerers and wizards will be using Bind more effectively than clerics and empaths unless they go with an unusual split. I do see your point about imbedding, though.

If nobody else tries it first, later tonight when I can get on I'll put 214 in a gem and pass it off to a 2x MIU cleric or empath and see what happens. Edit: But one way or another I'm still buying that item, since in the worst case I'll just pass it off to my wizard after she levels enough.

@leafiara said in To GMs: Any chance we could get 3x spiritual lores?:

Then that's even stranger since sorcerers and wizards will be using Bind more effectively than clerics and empaths unless they go with an unusual split. I do see your point about imbedding, though.

If nobody else tries it first, later tonight when I can get on I'll put 214 in a gem and pass it off to a 2x MIU cleric or empath and see what happens. Edit: But one way or another I'm still buying that item, since in the worst case I'll just pass it off to my wizard after she levels enough.

Yeah, I did the math and it comes out to about... 6 points more. however, I think it ALSO means that unless the sorc or wizard is trained for Minor Elemental, the cleric or empath with 2x MIU is better than them at the few Warding spells in the 400's. However, Non-professional spells are generally considered less protected. 500's is the oddball, but since most wizards train it as a primary sphere they'll be better than outsides. But I don't know how this might change things around with 917 etc.

At any rate, to what you're trying, confirm it before you buy.

If chrism holders are ever sold off the shelf again, watch out...)

you know, i have a locker with like 50 of those, right?

If anyone gets to 3x something they can't already, it should be warriors with CMan!

There are lots of 3xs I'd want to see. Combat maneuvers for warriors, elemental lores and EMC for wizards, survival and ambush for rangers... pickpocketing for rogues, lol. But that's a whole other topic.

@ceph said in To GMs: Any chance we could get 3x spiritual lores?:

you know, i have a locker with like 50 of those, right?

I can only cast on Tilamaire ones, so I need 100 or 200 of those and then I'll start a revolution! Reim groups will love it.