With silvers plummeting in value (I'm seeing sales at less than $6 per million), nobody is selling books (or only selling them at too expensive a price), which is causing fewer people to make runs, which is causing less BS to be available. It's a bad cycle.
@idlewanderlust said in Secondary Market Collapse:
With silvers plummeting in value (I'm seeing sales at less than $6 per million), nobody is selling books (or only selling them at too expensive a price), which is causing fewer people to make runs, which is causing less BS to be available. It's a bad cycle.
@idlewanderlust said in Secondary Market Collapse:
With silvers plummeting in value (I'm seeing sales at less than $6 per million), nobody is selling books (or only selling them at too expensive a price), which is causing fewer people to make runs, which is causing less BS to be available. It's a bad cycle.
It's actually a self-adjusting cycle. As fewer people sell books for silvers, BS and silver prices stabilize to meet supply and demand.
Tgo01 is cashing out. Once he is done the prices will creep back up, slowly, unless other big money sellers do the same.
I do hope something is done to alter perceptions of silver value in the near future. I understand Wyrom et al don't want to come off as reactionary, but i'm sure plans have been made to ease player concerns about the intense focus on simucoins and secondary currency over silvers of late.
@briarfox potentially but if the trend is towards more simucoins and more scrip currencies, if there is a fundamentally lower demand because there's no places to spend it - it'll keep going down. Ebon's gate will be the straw - if silvers become useless there in favor of simucoin purchases and seashells, well I wouldn't see the point in accumulating silvers either.
@evarin said in Secondary Market Collapse:
Tgo01 is cashing out. Once he is done the prices will creep back up, slowly, unless other big money sellers do the same.
I do hope something is done to alter perceptions of silver value in the near future. I understand Wyrom et al don't want to come off as reactionary, but i'm sure plans have been made to ease player concerns about the intense focus on simucoins and secondary currency over silvers of late.
Tgo is cashing out because he sees everyone else cashing out and wants to get out before rock bottom. There are six or seven threads on the PC all offering 200+ million silvers each at dirt prices, because everyone sees the writing on the wall.
As far as @Wyrom is concerned, I wouldn't hold my breath for an easing of concerns about Simucoins. He's been shaking my faith in him for a year or more and it's becoming clear that a massive portion of the game's development is going to developing new and adjusting old systems to function only via secondary purchases beyond the largest monthly subscription fee of any modern game. And that's not even counting ticket prices. I've asked politely several times what percentage of development time he feels is spent on Simucoin related endeavors, and the question's been ignored every time.
The player economy is a big part of the game. The question becomes, would gemstone continue well enough if it effectively collapses and items only go for secondary currencies and/or cash? There'd be a rough transition to be sure, and a good number of players would leave, but I think given the "worst case scenario" it would endure. It certainly wont be the better for it, though.
@flimbo said in Secondary Market Collapse: I've asked politely several times what percentage of development time he feels is spent on Simucoin related endeavors, and the question's been ignored every time.
Well, if I were he, I probably wouldn't answer it.
@idlewanderlust said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@flimbo said in Secondary Market Collapse: I've asked politely several times what percentage of development time he feels is spent on Simucoin related endeavors, and the question's been ignored every time.
Well, if I were he, I probably wouldn't answer it.
They have their own whole team of people who code for Simucoin stuff. It's a sizable portion of development.
You're greatly downplaying other aspects of ongoing development that occur elsewhere in the game with your emphasis on SimuCoins as an item. Furthermore, even Simucoin introduced events offer systems that can be leveraged by non-simucoin items. For example, the new waivers and such were introduced by Retser's efforts on Reim shops.
Sure, an automation of padding/etc via Duskruin, but we're also just turned around from some fairly big changes to MIU/AS to make alternative circles more alluring. Yes, Reim introduced... but also limited re-introduction of lich's landing, adding critters to OTF, the release of the confluence, SOS.
@whirlin said in Secondary Market Collapse:
You're greatly downplaying other aspects of ongoing development that occur elsewhere in the game with your emphasis on SimuCoins as an item. Furthermore, even Simucoin introduced events offer systems that can be leveraged by non-simucoin items. For example, the new waivers and such were introduced by Retser's efforts on Reim shops.
Sure, an automation of padding/etc via Duskruin, but we're also just turned around from some fairly big changes to MIU/AS to make alternative circles more alluring. Yes, Reim introduced... but also limited re-introduction of lich's landing, adding critters to OTF, the release of the confluence, SOS.
There is no downplaying needed. All one has to do is compare two years ago to today to see the effect Simucoin based development has had on the game. Silvers have sharply declined in value, from $10-12 per million to now $4-6 with no sign of rebounding. Every event now has at least a strong Simucoin component. A good portion of events now are ONLY accessible via Simucoin. And now the ticketed events are also going to be largely Simucoin based, in addition to the ticket costs. In addition to the subscription costs.
When posed with the question "Is my $20 or $40 per month as valuable now as it was two years ago? Can I get the same benefits now as I did then for that monthly investment?", the answer is, unequivocally: No. The development the game is receiving is going now largely to systems I don't use, to try to squeeze blood from a stone.
They've added a few things here and there for those people pathetic enough to only invest the highest monthly subscription rate of any modern game. Somehow, some way, that gives certain people a reason to state that everything is perfect and normal, but it has absolutely no bearing on the reality of the situation.
It makes me think about the story of the frog in the pot. The frog doesn't notice the water getting warmer right up until the point that it's boiled and dies.
From my post on the PC:
"One possible way to set a floor is to have silvers be able to directly buy alt-currency and simucoins from Simu at an exorbitant price. That way, they'd always have some form of value. They could also make it so if you spend enough silver you can pay for (or offset a part of the cost of) your account for a given length of time."
@flimbo said in Secondary Market Collapse:
When posed with the question "Is my $20 or $40 per month as valuable now as it was two years ago? Can I get the same benefits now as I did then for that monthly investment?", the answer is, unequivocally: No. The development the game is receiving is going now largely to systems I don't use, to try to squeeze blood from a stone.
What benefits have been removed from your $20 a month that now necessitate buying simucoins?
@whirlin said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@flimbo said in Secondary Market Collapse:
When posed with the question "Is my $20 or $40 per month as valuable now as it was two years ago? Can I get the same benefits now as I did then for that monthly investment?", the answer is, unequivocally: No. The development the game is receiving is going now largely to systems I don't use, to try to squeeze blood from a stone.
What benefits have been removed from your $20 a month that now necessitate buying simucoins?
Development for systems I have access to. Simucoin development far outpaces normal development, and for a game that charges not a large subscription fee, but again, THE largest subscription fee of any game in its genre, that is an unacceptable business practice.
You've made this argument before and it still doesn't hold water. At no point were you promised with your subscription you would get the majority of development attention. Instead, it's the opposite: It's clear Basic gets less attention than Premium or Platinum. And money-generated events have always gotten more attention. It's just SimuCoin instead of box office. Nothing changed.
@whirlin said in Secondary Market Collapse:
What benefits have been removed from your $20 a month that now necessitate buying simucoins?
@flimbo said in Secondary Market Collapse:
Development for systems I have access to. Simucoin development far outpaces normal development, and for a game that charges not a large subscription fee, but again, THE largest subscription fee of any game in its genre, that is an unacceptable business practice.
you have access to the free login rewards and monthly simucoins. It seems like you ignore all other development because it's not something you want worked on.
You're also one of 10 classes. Bards haven't had any new systems since well before Monks ever even existed.
You can argue the company line as long as you like, but the evidence in the industry is on my side. There's a reason Zynga's stock is worth $3 per share now instead of $15 like it was in 2012, and my guess is that 5 years is about the same it's going to take for this model to go full nosedive as well.
You cannot and should not charge your customer-base a large subscription fee and box office prices and microtransactions at the same time in order to unlock all content, or they will go elsewhere.
The model right now is propped up by the whales. It will still be propped up by the whales three years from now (since we're about 2 years into the heavy Simucoin development push). The difference is, everyone that isn't a whale will be gone.
The SC store premiered in May 2014. I'd say there's been quite a lot of development outside that system since then (I would know, see my group title), including excellent xp changes. I do agree it's been very slow for the 6 months before the MIU changes.
The EG changes means that for many people, I don't know whether "most" or not, EG will cost less, and the lower cost means more people will probably participate.
Simu has been doing box office stuff since before the model even existed. The emphasis to move from the Box Office to leverage the Simucoin only enables them to create a single-stream of content/box-office/event related purchases, allowing them to decommission the Box office and have savings with manual processes to set up particular events/whatnots, enabling them to dedicate more resources to new development efforts rather than keeping legacy processes alive. Lets take a look at Ebon's Gate for instance... that was always a paid event on top of subscription cost. Simu did it before micro-transactions.
Flimbo is, of course, free to feel however he wants about it, but all the evidence within the game doesn't support his argument. Participation in events is up. Revenue is up. Subscriptions are up. In-game population is up. People aren't seeing this as deprivation of full content but additional opportunities. As long as that continues, these events will remain. When and if that changes, so will the development direction. This is natural.
Moving event entrance from the box office to simucoin purchases is fine, nothing wrong with that. The main issue everyone is up in arms is that EG digging is now a simucoin item, theres no event that has silvers gambling for mechanical items, behind a paywall or not. Picklefest, goblyn games, stuff like that are for little fluff items, no big deal. Separating EG into mini purchases isn't even a bad idea. But making digging into another simucoins for X WHATEVER to get an item, that's the problem.
@whirlin said in Secondary Market Collapse:
Simu has been doing box office stuff since before the model even existed. The emphasis to move from the Box Office to leverage the Simucoin only enables them to create a single-stream of content/box-office/event related purchases, allowing them to decommission the Box office and have savings with manual processes to set up particular events/whatnots, enabling them to dedicate more resources to new development efforts rather than keeping legacy processes alive. Lets take a look at Ebon's Gate for instance... that was always a paid event on top of subscription cost. Simu did it before micro-transactions.
Yes, let's talk about Ebon's Gate. My understanding of the thread that dealt with it and the controversy surrounding it is that Ebon's Gate will still have a Box Office cost, and simply Simucoins on top of that now.
Is that incorrect? Will Ebon's Gate be free to enter this year and only deal in Simucoins? Or is there going to be a ticket cost as well?
Because if there's a ticket cost as well, your entire argument is moot. It's just stacking another payment type onto the existing payment type which was itself on top of the first payment type.
@flimbo said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@whirlin said in Secondary Market Collapse:
Simu has been doing box office stuff since before the model even existed. The emphasis to move from the Box Office to leverage the Simucoin only enables them to create a single-stream of content/box-office/event related purchases, allowing them to decommission the Box office and have savings with manual processes to set up particular events/whatnots, enabling them to dedicate more resources to new development efforts rather than keeping legacy processes alive. Lets take a look at Ebon's Gate for instance... that was always a paid event on top of subscription cost. Simu did it before micro-transactions.
Yes, let's talk about Ebon's Gate. My understanding of the thread that dealt with it and the controversy surrounding it is that Ebon's Gate will still have a Box Office cost, and simply Simucoins on top of that now.
Is that incorrect? Will Ebon's Gate be free to enter this year and only deal in Simucoins? Or is there going to be a ticket cost as well?
Because if there's a ticket cost as well, your entire argument is moot. It's just stacking another payment type onto the existing payment type which was itself on top of the first payment type.
Yes, that is incorrect.
No Box Office ticket this time. It is free to attend but you pay simucoin items to unlock access to whichever parts of the location you want to attend (like I assume an area where the merchants are, etc). Unlocking full access probably costs the same or less of previous box office EG tickets.
The digging/games sounds like per use and for those that did that alot, it may reduce their enjoyment/amount of pulls.
@ordim said in Secondary Market Collapse:
Moving event entrance from the box office to simucoin purchases is fine, nothing wrong with that. The main issue everyone is up in arms is that EG digging is now a simucoin item, theres no event that has silvers gambling for mechanical items, behind a paywall or not. Picklefest, goblyn games, stuff like that are for little fluff items, no big deal. Separating EG into mini purchases isn't even a bad idea. But making digging into another simucoins for X WHATEVER to get an item, that's the problem.
Digging, in particular, became a bit unsustainable with people farming to shit with the infinite shovels and whatnots. Given that they had the same chances to wins at the other silver-based entry events, I can see them wanting to separate out that aspect/odds/etc of that particular event so we don't end up in a situation where 10000 T70s go to 3 people that have been scripting with their shovels forever. I haven't read the specifics, but if we're talking JUST digging, and the other EG ticket games and other things are still there, I don't see that much of an issue.
But, would have been best to call it something other than digging... just rebranding would have done it wonders. Adding the same name as something removed just causes the sting.
The overall business model is scummy and absolutely will cause a stiff decline once it gets its hooks into every facet of the game, as it seems to be going. Hell, even the Warrior Raging Thrak breaks character to tell you to buy Simucoins now. Give me a break.
For EG, I'll reserve my judgment then until it inevitably is revealed as a massive cash grab for the whales. I find it very difficult to believe that $50 will go as far with Simucoin purchases in EG as $50 went in ticket price in previous years. Because in previous years, $50 was all inclusive. If $50 worth of simucoins turns out to not be all inclusive, then immediately one can say beyond question that this is a significant price hike aimed at gambling addicts. If I'm wrong, I'm prepared to eat those words. But I'm not wrong, and you know it.
The warrior raging thrak would be ashamed that you're all supporting this.
Edit to add:
We're headed down a path with 10 yearly events that have 10 different individual currencies that aren't interchangeable, with silvers being completely valueless and all events solely catering to hopeless gambling addicts, and every premium item/service being gated behind that gambling paywall.
bullshit. You can't in one breath say "look at all this increased participation" and then say "Well we dont want too many prizes going out!". For a lot of people the T5 prizes from digging/games are the closest they will get to an auction win/big item. It's easy to become jaded when there are a lot of people who would be over their heels to have something like an unlocked brownie tin or other auction tier fluff item. But you have identified a situation that they have created themselves, all the wealth is pooled into a few bank accounts, real or perceived. How do you fairly deal with that?
@whirlin said in Secondary Market Collapse:
Digging, in particular, became a bit unsustainable with people farming to shit with the infinite shovels and whatnots. Given that they had the same chances to wins at the other silver-based entry events, I can see them wanting to separate out that aspect/odds/etc of that particular event so we don't end up in a situation where 10000 T70s go to 3 people that have been scripting with their shovels forever. I haven't read the specifics, but if we're talking JUST digging, and the other EG ticket games and other things are still there, I don't see that much of an issue.
Whirlin and I agree so it must be true.
@flimbo said in Secondary Market Collapse:
For EG, I'll reserve my judgment then until it inevitably is revealed as a massive cash grab for the whales. I find it very difficult to believe that $50 will go as far with Simucoin purchases in EG as $50 went in ticket price in previous years. Because in previous years, $50 was all inclusive. If $50 worth of simucoins turns out to not be all inclusive, then immediately one can say beyond question that this is a significant price hike aimed at gambling addicts. If I'm wrong, I'm prepared to eat those words. But I'm not wrong, and you know it.
Good. I hope they make money hand over fist from it. Because it's a completely separate event from the regular game and you really miss out on nothing important if you don't participate, I don't care how they choose to monetize it. What I do know is this: I have, lifetime, spent $0 on Ebon's Gate. I would never have bought a $50 ticket for it. There is now a non-zero chance I spend a little money on it. I'm not alone in this boat, and I would be willing to bet people like me more than makes up for the loss in ticket revenue.
The people have spoken loud and clear and they prefer this model over the box office. Most people who are upset about it are the high rollers, and they're gonna be fine.
There are far better ways of distributing wins among people than to make it "the deepest cash pockets takes the most prizes"
@idlewanderlust said in Secondary Market Collapse:
The people have spoken loud and clear and they prefer this model over the box office. Most people who are upset about it are the high rollers, and they're gonna be fine.
I dunno about most people being upset about it being the high rollers. However, these threads have absolutely shown that there's a small number of people who are REALLY upset, which is normal. the fact that more people than ever are participating in pay events, where each event pulls in several months worth of sub money, that's what's important.
For those who are really upset at the new model, don't participate. It's the best way to send feedback. Threats and other doomsaying is meaningless. stop paying. If you feel you aren't getting your money worth, quit.
also, it's funny to watch, the people who are really upset all act like anybody who spends more than $20 on something must be a gambling addict. The Whale tag doesn't even kick in until you spend $1000 a MONTH on a game, btw. Most of the people that are being called whales are just pay players. And Most people who spend even more than a grand aren't helpless addicts who don't know what they're doing, they're people with a lot of disposable income who choose to spend it on the game.
Heck, I'm sure a lot of you spend that much or more on your kids. What you choose to do with your life, and money, is up to you.
@ordim said in Secondary Market Collapse:
There are far better ways of distributing wins among people than to make it "the deepest cash pockets takes the most prizes"
This has been a (not unique to this game) problem in GS forever.
@idlewanderlust said in Secondary Market Collapse:
This has been a (not unique to this game) problem in GS forever.
omg yeah imagine if we returned to giving people who dominate storylines the best new gear
Right, before you had to buy silvers or the item in question directly from the person, Simu just said "we'll take the cash directly please" It's a distinction that's important.
@ordim said in Secondary Market Collapse:
Right, before you had to buy silvers or the item in question directly from the person, Simu just said "we'll take the cash directly please" It's a distinction that's important.
Yup. but I prefer the money go to Simu over some random silver farmer.
But you understand how that undermines the in-game currency of silvers right? I'm happy to spend cash, but you can't just undercut a long-standing in-game currency without planning for another use for it.
@ordim said in Secondary Market Collapse:
But you understand how that undermines the in-game currency of silvers right? I'm happy to spend cash, but you can't just undercut a long-standing in-game currency without planning for another use for it.
I suggest making suggestions. I suggested making enhancive recharging for silvers (order 99) work year-round.
I think the re-release of Playershops will be helpful as more active shop keepers put their items out that can be conveniently purchased for silvers.
@flimbo said in Secondary Market Collapse:
Hell, even the Warrior Raging Thrak breaks character to tell you to buy Simucoins now.
GROSS! Give that light work to the sprite.
@whirlin said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@flimbo said in Secondary Market Collapse:
When posed with the question "Is my $20 or $40 per month as valuable now as it was two years ago? Can I get the same benefits now as I did then for that monthly investment?", the answer is, unequivocally: No. The development the game is receiving is going now largely to systems I don't use, to try to squeeze blood from a stone.
What benefits have been removed from your $20 a month that now necessitate buying simucoins?
The ability to attain items of value through in game means only. Who's gonna sell high end stuff for silvers when silvers become worthless? People are already on the verge of not accepting silvers for books and bloodscrip.
People will stop selling high end items for silver altogether if silvers are worthless, which leaves Simucoins/cash as the only way to get anything that isn't just some off the shelf 4x trash. I'll be surprised if people are still selling books for silvers at the next DR run.
Simu is jerking each other off over short term gains that will come at the expense of the game's long term life, and I think things are going to take a much bigger shit than they're expecting once silvers become completely worthless.
Wyrom claims that silvers will still be useful, but I don't recall him explaining how that will be the case, and needing coins to buy that quartz orb for 500 coins in the pawnshop doesn't exactly count.
I also think it's hilarious that Simu complains about lack of silver drains with zero priority on fixing it while simultaneously flooding silvers into the game via DR. Maerit was saying that they've made more coins in a single DR run than they've made in the past decade of normal gameplay.
The only way to keep silvers useful at this point that I can think of is to attach a silver cost to bloodscrip items. Which they won't do because they see silvers as a potential player to player transaction which in their eyes is a lost opportunity to sell more Simucoins. The player who does everything in game only doesn't exist to Simu anymore, not in any meaningful way anyway.
Get your ensorcelling done! Silvers accepted.
@whirlin said in Secondary Market Collapse:
Simu has been doing box office stuff since before the model even existed. The emphasis to move from the Box Office to leverage the Simucoin only enables them to create a single-stream of content/box-office/event related purchases, allowing them to decommission the Box office and have savings with manual processes to set up particular events/whatnots, enabling them to dedicate more resources to new development efforts rather than keeping legacy processes alive. Lets take a look at Ebon's Gate for instance... that was always a paid event on top of subscription cost. Simu did it before micro-transactions.
It also allows them to get $2000 for an item instead of $50.
My 2 silver:
I have a love/hate relationship with the current way that Gemstone is priced for services/subscriptions/events.
First of all let me say that I too think that silvers are being devalued and that there needs to be a change to insert more PERCEIVED and ACTUAL value for silvers into the system. Note: This is not the same as a silver drain, which I feel isnt the solution we need at present.
Multi-ticket raffles for mid/high-end items are a good one. That way if something comes up that someone REALLY wants, they can pump all their silver into an increased chance to win.
Annual, even SEMI-annual Silver Only auctions for some low, mostly mid, a few High-end items would also go a LONG way to making people really value silver. Put some teasers up 1-2 months before and watch people try and swallow up all the silver.
Create a capped hunting area that requires a pass that must be renewed each week...and can only be renewed for a High amount of silver. This can be extended throughout the level ranges, actually....and be sort of like a 'premium' hunting area for those who are Rich. Make it attractive enough that this is something people will seek to hunt in.
To steal an idea from EVE ONLINE: Sell 'Gift of Adventures' in game for silver. 50 million for a month of 'free' premium subscription.
These are three off the cuff ideas that would go far to alleviating the problem.
That being said: Keep the Duskruin how it is and other SIMUCOIN ONLY events and services. Let people choose which they want to spend: Their money or their time.
Gemstone is a business. It needs to make money. And quite frankly, Im damn glad of these events that give me...the non-rich player...a chance at some high end gear without having to go through some 'in game greedy ass merchant' to get it. I don't want to have to deal with the markup the haves give to some of these items. Give me the chance to give Simutronics money instead of the whales.
@hjfudge said in Secondary Market Collapse:
That being said: Keep the Duskruin how it is and other SIMUCOIN ONLY events and services. Let people choose which they want to spend: Their money or their time.
The problem with this is Simu is already charging people both. You pay them money to allow you to spend dozens/hundreds of hours grinding before you can get anything.
@hjfudge said in Secondary Market Collapse:
To steal an idea from EVE ONLINE: Sell 'Gift of Adventures' in game for silver. 50 million for a month of 'free' premium subscription.
EVE doesn't sell PLEX directly to players. A player can buy an extra PLEX, and then use the in-game market to sell it to another player. It's no different than what we currently have. Many people already trade silvers and GOA.
@hjfudge said in Secondary Market Collapse:
Multi-ticket raffles for mid/high-end items are a good one. That way if something comes up that someone REALLY wants, they can pump all their silver into an increased chance to win.
Annual, even SEMI-annual Silver Only auctions for some low, mostly mid, a few High-end items would also go a LONG way to making people really value silver. Put some teasers up 1-2 months before and watch people try and swallow up all the silver.
Create a capped hunting area that requires a pass that must be renewed each week…and can only be renewed for a High amount of silver. This can be extended throughout the level ranges, actually…and be sort of like a ‘premium’ hunting area for those who are Rich. Make it attractive enough that this is something people will seek to hunt in.
To steal an idea from EVE ONLINE: Sell ‘Gift of Adventures’ in game for silver. 50 million for a month of ‘free’ premium subscription.
I like the first and last ideas. I think the traditional raffle system is due for an overhaul to work like an actual raffle where people buy multiple tickets. I'm ignorant on what other games do so the turn in system is new to me. I like it.
Semi-annual auctions would take way too much GM time I think. And while we have Reim already, another rent-based hunting area might create a lot of resentment, deserved or not.
oh, also, EVE players have been complaining forever that the value of ISK to dollars plummets. So don't think they've got this problem licked or anything. The big thing EVE has that we don't is massive, MASSIVE item destruction. If you want EVE level item loss, kiss a good chunk of your stuff goodbye every moneth.
@allereli said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@hjfudge said in Secondary Market Collapse:
Multi-ticket raffles for mid/high-end items are a good one. That way if something comes up that someone REALLY wants, they can pump all their silver into an increased chance to win.
Annual, even SEMI-annual Silver Only auctions for some low, mostly mid, a few High-end items would also go a LONG way to making people really value silver. Put some teasers up 1-2 months before and watch people try and swallow up all the silver.
Create a capped hunting area that requires a pass that must be renewed each week…and can only be renewed for a High amount of silver. This can be extended throughout the level ranges, actually…and be sort of like a ‘premium’ hunting area for those who are Rich. Make it attractive enough that this is something people will seek to hunt in.
To steal an idea from EVE ONLINE: Sell ‘Gift of Adventures’ in game for silver. 50 million for a month of ‘free’ premium subscription.
I like the first and last ideas. I think the traditional raffle system is due for an overhaul to work like an actual raffle where people buy multiple tickets. I'm ignorant on what other games do so the turn in system is new to me. I like it.
Semi-annual auctions would take way too much GM time I think. And while we have Reim already, another rent-based hunting area might create a lot of resentment, deserved or not.
The current Rent Based hunting area is SIMUCOIN based rent, not silver based. Unless there is a way to get in I am unaware of that is just Silver based?
@hjfudge said in Secondary Market Collapse:
The current Rent Based hunting area is SIMUCOIN based rent, not silver based. Unless there is a way to get in I am unaware of that is just Silver based?
you can always buy entry spheres for silver from other players.
@allereli said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@hjfudge said in Secondary Market Collapse:
The current Rent Based hunting area is SIMUCOIN based rent, not silver based. Unless there is a way to get in I am unaware of that is just Silver based?
you can always buy entry spheres for silver from other players.
Creating an area that you CANNOT buy simucoin access to, and MUST buy using silver, WOULD help the problem.
@archsenex said in Secondary Market Collapse:
oh, also, EVE players have been complaining forever that the value of ISK to dollars plummets. So don't think they've got this problem licked or anything. The big thing EVE has that we don't is massive, MASSIVE item destruction. If you want EVE level item loss, kiss a good chunk of your stuff goodbye every moneth.
No, they don't have the problem licked. Most MMOs have trouble with inflation. The difference though is that Gemstone has been directly causing the problem these last few years. They've flat out stopped attempting to take silvers out of the system in favor of creating 10 different other currencies that can be purchased with dollars, and gating different types of items that you may want behind those alternate currencies instead of silvers. They're actively devaluing their own primary currency, on purpose, which is one of the things I take issue with.
@hjfudge said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@allereli said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@hjfudge said in Secondary Market Collapse:
The current Rent Based hunting area is SIMUCOIN based rent, not silver based. Unless there is a way to get in I am unaware of that is just Silver based?
you can always buy entry spheres for silver from other players.
But the fact there is a Simucoin avenue for it would not help the perceived silver value problem. Creating an area that you CANNOT buy simucoin access to, and MUST buy using silver, WOULD help the problem.
It wouldn't. Unless the loot there was worth the expense of entry, nobody would go. And if it was worth the expense of entry, it would just make more silvers.
the only way to really drain silvers is to force everybody to pay into a drain, every single account. And it would have to be enough that most accounts (at least half) LOSE silvers every month.
@archsenex said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@hjfudge said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@allereli said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@hjfudge said in Secondary Market Collapse:
The current Rent Based hunting area is SIMUCOIN based rent, not silver based. Unless there is a way to get in I am unaware of that is just Silver based?
you can always buy entry spheres for silver from other players.
But the fact there is a Simucoin avenue for it would not help the perceived silver value problem. Creating an area that you CANNOT buy simucoin access to, and MUST buy using silver, WOULD help the problem.
It wouldn't. Unless the loot there was worth the expense of entry, nobody would go. And if it was worth the expense of entry, it would just make more silvers.
the only way to really drain silvers is to force everybody to pay into a drain, every single account. And it would have to be enough that most accounts (at least half) LOSE silvers every month.
The point isnt to drain silvers. The point is to increase the perceived value of silvers.
Draining silvers isnt the solution we need. We need a reason for people to want to use silvers as a medium of exchange...
@hjfudge said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@archsenex said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@hjfudge said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@allereli said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@hjfudge said in Secondary Market Collapse:
The current Rent Based hunting area is SIMUCOIN based rent, not silver based. Unless there is a way to get in I am unaware of that is just Silver based?
you can always buy entry spheres for silver from other players.
But the fact there is a Simucoin avenue for it would not help the perceived silver value problem. Creating an area that you CANNOT buy simucoin access to, and MUST buy using silver, WOULD help the problem.
It wouldn't. Unless the loot there was worth the expense of entry, nobody would go. And if it was worth the expense of entry, it would just make more silvers.
the only way to really drain silvers is to force everybody to pay into a drain, every single account. And it would have to be enough that most accounts (at least half) LOSE silvers every month.
The point isnt to drain silvers. The point is to increase the perceived value of silvers.
Draining silvers isnt the solution we need. We need a reason for people to want to use silvers as a medium of exchange...
It's both. You have active people playing that generate so much it floods the market and drives the price down. You also have a lack of items that people would legitimately want that can only be bought with silvers. Both issues need to be addressed.
@viekn said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@hjfudge said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@archsenex said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@hjfudge said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@allereli said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@hjfudge said in Secondary Market Collapse:
The current Rent Based hunting area is SIMUCOIN based rent, not silver based. Unless there is a way to get in I am unaware of that is just Silver based?
you can always buy entry spheres for silver from other players.
But the fact there is a Simucoin avenue for it would not help the perceived silver value problem. Creating an area that you CANNOT buy simucoin access to, and MUST buy using silver, WOULD help the problem.
It wouldn't. Unless the loot there was worth the expense of entry, nobody would go. And if it was worth the expense of entry, it would just make more silvers.
the only way to really drain silvers is to force everybody to pay into a drain, every single account. And it would have to be enough that most accounts (at least half) LOSE silvers every month.
The point isnt to drain silvers. The point is to increase the perceived value of silvers.
Draining silvers isnt the solution we need. We need a reason for people to want to use silvers as a medium of exchange...
It's both. You have active people playing that generate so much it floods the market and drives the price down. You also have a lack of items that people would legitimately want that can only be bought with silvers. Both issues need to be addressed.
I dont mind the price being driven down a bit. 10-12$ per was...way inflated.
6 per is I think a healthy point. Maybe even 5 per. But I am no economist! Sad for you though, if you invested on the high side. But so it goes, ya?
@hjfudge said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@viekn said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@hjfudge said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@archsenex said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@hjfudge said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@allereli said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@hjfudge said in Secondary Market Collapse:
The current Rent Based hunting area is SIMUCOIN based rent, not silver based. Unless there is a way to get in I am unaware of that is just Silver based?
you can always buy entry spheres for silver from other players.
But the fact there is a Simucoin avenue for it would not help the perceived silver value problem. Creating an area that you CANNOT buy simucoin access to, and MUST buy using silver, WOULD help the problem.
It wouldn't. Unless the loot there was worth the expense of entry, nobody would go. And if it was worth the expense of entry, it would just make more silvers.
the only way to really drain silvers is to force everybody to pay into a drain, every single account. And it would have to be enough that most accounts (at least half) LOSE silvers every month.
The point isnt to drain silvers. The point is to increase the perceived value of silvers.
Draining silvers isnt the solution we need. We need a reason for people to want to use silvers as a medium of exchange...
It's both. You have active people playing that generate so much it floods the market and drives the price down. You also have a lack of items that people would legitimately want that can only be bought with silvers. Both issues need to be addressed.
I dont mind the price being driven down a bit. 10-12$ per was...way inflated.
6 per is I think a healthy point. Maybe even 5 per. But I am no economist! Sad for you though, if you invested on the high side. But so it goes, ya?
Silvers are going to stabilize, and 5 per may be where. They'll stabilize at about "One month of farming in game = the cost of a subscription for a month"
Hey, first mil I sold back in the 90s went for $38 per. I remember the figure specifically because I was 12 and it seemed like a fortune. My mother got a money order in the mail and made me send it back because she thought selling something on the internet was...I dunno...criminal or something. Inflation and devaluation does happen naturally. We're just not doing anything to combat it currently. And in fact, we're doing the opposite. We're actively contributing to it.
@archsenex said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@hjfudge said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@viekn said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@hjfudge said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@archsenex said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@hjfudge said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@allereli said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@hjfudge said in Secondary Market Collapse:
The current Rent Based hunting area is SIMUCOIN based rent, not silver based. Unless there is a way to get in I am unaware of that is just Silver based?
you can always buy entry spheres for silver from other players.
But the fact there is a Simucoin avenue for it would not help the perceived silver value problem. Creating an area that you CANNOT buy simucoin access to, and MUST buy using silver, WOULD help the problem.
It wouldn't. Unless the loot there was worth the expense of entry, nobody would go. And if it was worth the expense of entry, it would just make more silvers.
the only way to really drain silvers is to force everybody to pay into a drain, every single account. And it would have to be enough that most accounts (at least half) LOSE silvers every month.
The point isnt to drain silvers. The point is to increase the perceived value of silvers.
Draining silvers isnt the solution we need. We need a reason for people to want to use silvers as a medium of exchange...
It's both. You have active people playing that generate so much it floods the market and drives the price down. You also have a lack of items that people would legitimately want that can only be bought with silvers. Both issues need to be addressed.
I dont mind the price being driven down a bit. 10-12$ per was...way inflated.
6 per is I think a healthy point. Maybe even 5 per. But I am no economist! Sad for you though, if you invested on the high side. But so it goes, ya?
Silvers are going to stabilize, and 5 per may be where. They'll stabilize at about "One month of farming in game = the cost of a subscription for a month"
It can only stabilize there if there's something to spend those silvers on. I can fund your premium subscription for 50,000 Flimbo Bucks if you want, but the only way somebody would take the deal is if Flimbo Bucks have something they're good for.
Honestly, I think the best form of a simucoin second currency would have been a completely different direction that served everyone's interests. I'm almost afraid to say what it is because I think if at this point if they liked it they'd just heap it on top of the Simucoin mountain like a cherry on top of a poop flavored sundae.
But here it goes: Simucoins should've been used to crowdfund development based on popular interest in a system, voted upon by buying and investing Simucoins into development of that system.
For example:
50,000 simucoin crowdfunding to fund the development of: The Ranger's Guild
25,000 simucoin crowdfunding to fund the development of: Finishing the Monk Spell List.
40,000 Simucoins crowdfunded to fund: Rework of CoL
Simucoins refunded to your pool if project is not funded in X days/months
Et cetera.
THAT is a microtransaction system I could get on board with on top of a subscription system. It allows you invest your extra "disposable earnings" in something that is done by popular support, to systems the players want to see. What we have instead is a slow gating of all the "top tier" items and group activities behind paywalls and gambling systems you've got to invest thousands of dollars in for a shot at what you want. My way also doesn't devalue the currency system either.
@flimbo said in Secondary Market Collapse:
Honestly, I think the best form of a simucoin second currency would have been a completely different direction that served everyone's interests. I'm almost afraid to say what it is because I think if at this point if they liked it they'd just heap it on top of the Simucoin mountain like a cherry on top of a poop flavored sundae.
But here it goes: Simucoins should've been used to crowdfund development based on popular interest in a system, voted upon by buying and investing Simucoins into development of that system.
For example:
50,000 simucoin crowdfunding to fund the development of: The Ranger's Guild
25,000 simucoin crowdfunding to fund the development of: Finishing the Monk Spell List.
40,000 Simucoins crowdfunded to fund: Rework of CoL
Simucoins refunded to your pool if project is not funded in X days/months
Et cetera.
THAT is a microtransaction system I could get on board with on top of a subscription system. It allows you invest your extra "disposable earnings" in something that is done by popular support, to systems the players want to see. What we have instead is a slow gating of all the "top tier" items and group activities behind paywalls and gambling systems you've got to invest thousands of dollars in for a shot at what you want. My way also doesn't devalue the currency system either.
You know they're gonna steal that idea now, act like they came up with it on their own, axe the refund part, release a watered down version of the Ranger's Guild (random example) and then decide they need another crowdfund to fix it while keeping all their other nickel and dime rackets intact. And they'll give the GMs who actually coded it like $15 and a pack of smokes or something and chalk up the rest to fire extinguisher inspection costs.
And then the same idiots that donated the first time around will fall for it again and again.
The idea itself seems pretty decent though.
I have to admit--if they went with Flimbo's idea, I'd probably become part of the problem Methais sees. All while knowing fully well what I was doing and hoping for the best anyway!
I honestly feel those pushing super hard for Silver Drains are hoping that Simu screws up and introduces too MANY silver drains, forcing all us addicts to go through the 'Big Fish' silver gods for their purchasing needs (as in times before).
A lot of their frustration seems to come from the fact they can now be bypassed.
Account attuned services. Huge Silver costs.
Allow Premium point services to be purchased with silvers.
Enhancer recharging for silvers, more frequently.
1x RPA orbs for silvers
Temp Weighting, padding, flares for silvers.
Once a year, allow silvers to purchase simucoins. Drain huge amounts of silver once. Get it done and over.
Make a new player region, where you can move to for a year, with what you can carry only. You cannot come back. No silvers taken. Off you go. Explore the new continent with what is in your backpack. See you in a year.
A post cap valence? A post cap continent?
Perhaps you go, and have to explore till you find your way back.
Aurach
The saddest part about this thread is the realization that neither Wyrom, nor any GM is likely to make an appearance to address anyone's concerns, and instead they'll stick to just the ones they can use to advertise or otherwise bang the drum about how what they're doing is amazing.
A forum that has the ability to have a dialogue with the GMs shouldn't just include the positive. Regardless of my views personally at one extreme end of the spectrum in this matter, this is a real concern that all players have, and needs to be addressed.
@hjfudge said in Secondary Market Collapse:
I honestly feel those pushing super hard for Silver Drains are hoping that Simu screws up and introduces too MANY silver drains, forcing all us addicts to go through the 'Big Fish' silver gods for their purchasing needs (as in times before).
A lot of their frustration seems to come from the fact they can now be bypassed.
I sell my coins because I have nothing worthwhile to spend them on in game. Though some sell to actually afford rent and shit like that, and I have no clue how people get by like that.
@flimbo said in Secondary Market Collapse:
the realization that neither Wyrom, nor any GM is likely to make an appearance to address anyone’s concerns
I bet they'd like nothing better than to have a discussion about concerns. I bet if there was give and take, and if it were legally permissible (those damn NDAs), we'd find quite a few GMs who really do want to kick back, put up their feet and dream along with us.
I also bet that there would be any number of us (and I'm not excluding myself, from this) who don't really want a discussion about concerns, nor give and take. Those number of us just want to make the other party (and it doesn't really matter who) understand just how miserable we really are. And that. . . now, that is a very good reason not to put one's feet up and dream.
Ask the MLB Umpires (who are charged, by the way, with the integrity of the game even under constant on-going commercialization too, interestingly enough) how it goes when you can't have a reasonable exchange but instead have to listen to . . . well, hopefully the concept is clear.
I think the GMs would like this to be that place.
So, I think there are some things we can agree on here:
If bloodscrip becomes the primary currency, I don't think that's good for the game's health, especially if the only realistic way to acquire it is through SimuCoin purchases. So that means either silvers need to gain value or bloodscrip needs to be more accessible. I have to imagine the development staff keeps an eye on the secondary market and how it reflects the health of the game. So I bet this sort of thing is being monitored.
There's been a lot of good suggestions here. I wouldn't mind seeing things like the limited ability to purchase SimuCoin items via silver. Flimbo's idea is good in theory but not the right choice for a game as messy to develop as Gemstone. If people are crowdfunding, they're going to pay up front, and when things don't go as planned or promised (and they won't), it's going to be a nightmare for everyone involved. It could also lead to a few people just throwing their weight around and determining the direction of the game- and you don't want that.
I also wonder if maybe the silver issue is tied to the ever-growing capped population and the fact there's really nothing for them to do other than the occasional new hunting areas. This could be a growing problem.
@doug said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@flimbo said in Secondary Market Collapse:
the realization that neither Wyrom, nor any GM is likely to make an appearance to address anyone’s concerns
I bet they'd like nothing better than to have a discussion about concerns. I bet if there was give and take, and if it were legally permissible (those damn NDAs), we'd find quite a few GMs who really do want to kick back, put up their feet and dream along with us.
I also bet that there would be any number of us (and I'm not excluding myself, from this) who don't really want a discussion about concerns, nor give and take. Those number of us just want to make the other party (and it doesn't really matter who) understand just how miserable we really are. And that. . . now, that is a very good reason not to put one's feet up and dream.
Ask the MLB Umpires (who are charged, by the way, with the integrity of the game even under constant on-going commercialization too, interestingly enough) how it goes when you can't have a reasonable exchange but instead have to listen to . . . well, hopefully the concept is clear.
I think the GMs would like this to be that place.
Oh what a load of bull. If there were some kind of NDA in place that prevented the product manager of the game from having a discussion about legitimate concerns about it, then these forums wouldn't exist in the first place. I zero percent believe that the product manager of this game is not involved in the decision-making process that determines the development schedule of the game for which they are the product manager. There is no shadowy Illuminati in the background pulling the strings and cackling maniacally while preventing that person from talking to us about it.
Wyrom is making decisions, and these forums were made on the understanding that Wyrom would be able to reach out to us here because the company "cannot afford" to upkeep its own forums in a way that's consistent with the basic standards of the internet in 2005, much less 2017. This thread is no different than any thread where he can bang the marketing drum about what he's having his team release next, except for the fact that there's virtually no way for him to address any concern here without taking at least some responsibility for the fact that a number of his decisions have had a wildly negative impact on the game and its economy.
And that's a shame, because there are a number of good corrective ideas here, and solid dialogue between the players that could be very helpful for the company in determining its course of action going forward for continued profitability. Companies that put on blinders to their customers needs and just bang out ideas that bring in cash grabs in the quickest way possible tend to fail. Fast. And the change in overall development strategy since Wyrom has taken over reeks of short term cash grab.
@flimbo said in Secondary Market Collapse:
I zero percent believe that the product manager of this game is not involved in the decision-making process that determines the development schedule of the game for which they are the product manager.
I'm down with this. Do you also believe the product manager of this game has a boss to whom that product manager is accountable?
As to the rest - not worth the time. Those great ideas are still great ideas. The hyperbolic statements hide them, true - but they're still there. And if I were to bet on wanting to put their boots up and dream, it would include a lot of those great ideas, too.
I bet.
I wouldn't expect any staff member to engage in a discussion like this while Duskruin is going on.
Well said points by @Doug and @Whirlin.
No new argument to offer, but IMO a lower value/emphasis on silvers helps returning players. Player's returning has been wyrom's overall goal for a while and it's working.
More people = more fun. GS4 is on a roll.
Inflation example: Before I left, I bought a translucent spidersilk backpack for 75k and barely had 100k saved. Now it's worth around 10million? Seems crazy. Cheap silver on the secondary market reflects this egregious inflation and it helps new players hop back into things and buy some gear.
I must be in the minority here, but I have never liked the secondary market and I would not mourn its loss. I don't buy or sell silvers so I could care less what their value is. I am, however, concerned about the impact on the health and stability of the game itself. If we lost the secondary market, would the game die or simply shrink? Would this result in less profit to Simutronics / Stillfront, or would it balance out since they now essentially receive a "cut" of these transactions? Ultimately I want Gemstone to be a profitable endeavor for Simu / Stillfront, because I want the game I grew up with to continue existing.
To @Flimbo 's earlier comments, I feel my $40 / month subscription is justified because of the hours I get out of the game. It's purely an enjoyment factor for me.
@maylan said in Secondary Market Collapse:
I must be in the minority here, but I have never liked the secondary market and I would not mourn its loss. I don't buy or sell silvers so I could care less what their value is. I am, however, concerned about the impact on the health and stability of the game itself. If we lost the secondary market, would the game die or simply shrink? Would this result in less profit to Simutronics / Stillfront, or would it balance out since they now essentially receive a "cut" of these transactions? Ultimately I want Gemstone to be a profitable endeavor for Simu / Stillfront, because I want the game I grew up with to continue existing.
To @Flimbo 's earlier comments, I feel my $40 / month subscription is justified because of the hours I get out of the game. It's purely an enjoyment factor for me.
I don't think the game would die, but I do think the game would shrink. There is a portion of the population that plays in large part to generate wealth. If doing so was negatively effected, their experience would be negatively effected. One can safely assume a portion of those players would leave.
For some, the draw of going to events is the chance to win big ticket items which they can turn around and sell for a profit. If the means to obtain that profit are curtailed, it'll mean less enthusiasm for big ticket events, resulting in less tickets sold.
If you're comfortable with buying items for cash, then little will change beyond silver becoming even easier to acquire for the few reasons to accrue it beyond buying items from players. However, if you typically prefer to buy items and services from players using silver, it will be increasingly difficult to find anyone willing to part with their items for a reasonable amount of it, or even accepting silver at all. Another net loss.
Finally, I believe a segment of the population doesn't want to walk away from the game due to the perceived worth of their characters. If silvers fall in value, that worth declines. If it is more difficult to convert their items to dollars, that worth declines. I believe this will cause people to lose a sense of connection with their characters, leading them not to not as strong of an incentive to return.
A bit of a wall of text, but there you are.
@Evarin @Maylan
There's a balancing act though, as the fact that so many people go to events to turn a profit / flip the items has also been mentioned as a negative element for many people going to events ("Why bother going, only the people with more money than sense to buy the wins gets anything anyway" etc.).
So while there's a segment of the game that may not like the changes, there's another segment that may feel the changes are very helpful.
Ultimately, it will come down to whatever ends up making the game the most profitable and brings in players. Until people make good on their threats to quit over the current value of silver, no change will happen, in part because people have been threatening to quit for twenty years, so it's really an empty threat. And if the people who quit are all the known farmers, it's unlikely to make much of an impact either.
Until people make good on their threats to quit over the current value of silver, no change will happen, in part because people have been threatening to quit for twenty years, so it's really an empty threat.
Not an entirely empty threat. 20 years ago the average daily population was triple what it is now, more or less.
Shrinking I can deal with. I might even prefer it if it meant less farming. As to events, I don't mind paying $50 for events simply because I enjoy participating in them. But I think @ArchSenex is correct that attendance would tank, which would be a shame. Briarmoon Cove is a good example - there you have a pay event that was merchant and RP driven. Basically no real-world value, and @Wyrom reports that it just didn't perform very well.
@flimbo said in Secondary Market Collapse:
No, they don't have the problem licked. Most MMOs have trouble with inflation.
And CCP has a PhD Economist on staff to try and keep their market stable. Some things work, others don't, and they have been operating in that model for a long time. As someone else pointed out, they have massive item destruction. Imagine thinking of your gear as "ammo". There would be very little attachment to player gear in that case, and that's a large part of what fuels these events. Amassing "cool stuff" to show off.
I think the point is that this really isn't easy. I am hoping that Wyrom is consulting with others at all levels, vs. trying to manage this alone. I don't mean that as a slight in any way, but I know first hand how hard it is to balance GemStone for player fun vs. company profit.
@erek said in Secondary Market Collapse:
I think the point is that this really isn't easy. I am hoping that Wyrom is consulting with others at all levels, vs. trying to manage this alone.
Agreed. Wyrom's been very open with the community in general and this topic.
He discussed this topic a lot on a PC thread before this forum was created and it's exactly as you said. Staff's aware and they manage as best they can. No quick fixes and it's not easy.
The problem on the fix side is three fold: 1) There is no silver bullet (irony half intended). Nothing will shoot prices up instantly. This is further shown by the god auction's relatively minor impact. 2) Death-by-a-thousand-cuts for silver drains are incredibly time-intensive for coding potentially new systems to implement. That means less time towards meanwhile development that Flimbo is crying about. 3) Any development efforts conducted, any new system implemented, is non-profit driven. So, if they had done Reim entries costing 100k rather than simucoins, sure, they could have better controlled money supply, but that's also less cash in their pocket. It's a tough sell.
The thing is, no matter what they do to change the situation (and, as you can see, even if they do NOTHING to change the situation) its going to severely upset a portion of the playerbase.
I've never bought/sold on the secondary market save once, and that was simply an exchange of 50ct DR books for an item. Other than that, I have abstained.
Largely because selling silvers for $$$ or items for $$$ to and from players...skews the game in odd ways. An earlier poster said it, and they aren't wrong, that it gives an incentive to people to MASSIVELY abuse the silver generation mechanics and generate BILLIONS of silver to try and sell online. Its a PROBLEM, and it has done more harm to the game than almost anything imho. (besides MultiAccounting)
That said, I dont think its a problem that can be solved by simply replacing silvers with simucoins. That just creates a whole different set of issues.
I'll repeat: We dont need silver drain so much as we need to increase the perceived value of silvers in the In Game economy.
Wow, so just stepping on board with this fascinating conversation.
I think the problem here can be summed up like so, people want the option to either open up their wallets and buy things or invest game time and buy things that way.
I think what's happening is that the latter, the ability to buy things with gametime otherwise known as silvers, is disappearing. It's now open up your wallet or be barred from the 'good stuff'.
That's the jist of it in my humble opinion, and I'm not smart enough to see the answer. Maybe the management can pipe in about it.
I'll repeat: We dont need silver drain so much as we need to increase the perceived value of silvers in the In Game economy.
Silver drains can increase the perceived value of silvers in the game economy.
@evarin said in Secondary Market Collapse:
I'll repeat: We dont need silver drain so much as we need to increase the perceived value of silvers in the In Game economy.
Silver drains can increase the perceived value of silvers in the game economy.
Yes, it is one tool. But not the right tool for what we need.
Silver drains that would have an actual effect would be terrible for this game. It would almost force people to buy silvers from those who grind them out in order to keep up with the drain.
A more minor drain wouldnt work, and one major enough to work would only hurt those who dont really generate a lot of silver in the first place.
@hjfudge said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@evarin said in Secondary Market Collapse:
I'll repeat: We dont need silver drain so much as we need to increase the perceived value of silvers in the In Game economy.
Silver drains can increase the perceived value of silvers in the game economy.
Yes, it is one tool. But not the right tool for what we need.
Silver drains that would have an actual effect would be terrible for this game. It would almost force people to buy silvers from those who grind them out in order to keep up with the drain.
A more minor drain wouldnt work, and one major enough to work would only hurt those who dont really generate a lot of silver in the first place.
Eh, I disagree, but it's open to debate. You'd also need to constrict the flow of silvers coming in at the high end, like they have already done. One tool among many.
@evarin Oh no doubt, theres pros and cons and a lot of people will disagree with exactly how to fix the problem...which makes the problem quite sticky.
And hell, im no economist.
But recently, on the officials, @Wyrom claimed that there are several people generating 30 million silvers a week.
30 million. The most Im getting a week, and thats if I like...really apply myself...is 1 millionish. Anything that'll put a dent in that 30 mill generated will decimate me lol.
How would constricting silver generation at the high end work? I heard mention about nerfing the silver gotten from gems/the pawnshop...but that would also decimate me because thats how I make any silver at all. So...what would be some options for constricting that high end that A) Wouldnt hurt us mid-low end players B) Wouldnt feel just like some onerous tax C) Preferably would fit in with the game and increase immersion (note, this one isnt NECESSARY but it'd be damn nice)
Most MMO type games have a method to convert your primary currency generated in-game into different currencies. They should allow you to convert silvers into simucoins. Yes, it means losing immediate cash from simucoin sales, but it means retaining players and subscriptions.
This sets the silver value at specific amounts.
The problem is that games print money, but don't limit the printing of money. Unlike a fully functioning economy, you should never print endless amounts of money. You need to print enough to keep the right amount in circulation, and make it harder to keep finding more and more money. Items like gems, hides, pawnshop treasure allows the in-game system to print money. That's why silver drain is necessary. Since you can't prevent NPCs from issuing silvers, you need mechanics in place to ensure the amount of silvers issued by NPCs can drain a similar amount of silvers from players in the game.
It shouldn't be flat either. It's a dynamic economy, and costs should change based on how much silver is in circulation. Player markets are controlled by players, but in-game systems that generate silvers have no mechanism to prevent insane devaluing of the in-game currency. If the entire game community generates 1 billion in silvers per week generated by hunting / selling at NPCs, then you need to have a mechanic in-game to drain at least HALF of that silver from the community. That's how you keep a currency valid.
We do this in our daily lives. The cost of living for a healthy adult usually accounts for 40-60% of their total income. The other 60-40% goes into investments and improving your lifestyle. Comparing real-world scenarios to online games is generally a bad idea, but real-world models for economies actually work in games. If the community wants silvers to have value then:
Without these things, silvers will be easy to generate in the millions, and thus become worthless due to lack of demand.
@hjfudge said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@evarin Oh no doubt, theres pros and cons and a lot of people will disagree with exactly how to fix the problem...which makes the problem quite sticky.
And hell, im no economist.
But recently, on the officials, @Wyrom claimed that there are several people generating 30 million silvers a week.
30 million. The most Im getting a week, and thats if I like...really apply myself...is 1 millionish. Anything that'll put a dent in that 30 mill generated will decimate me lol.
How would constricting silver generation at the high end work? I heard mention about nerfing the silver gotten from gems/the pawnshop...but that would also decimate me because thats how I make any silver at all. So...what would be some options for constricting that high end that A) Wouldnt hurt us mid-low end players B) Wouldnt feel just like some onerous tax C) Preferably would fit in with the game and increase immersion (note, this one isnt NECESSARY but it'd be damn nice)
They nerfed trading to cut down on people selling massive amounts of stuff. That didn't affect you if your numbers are accurate. Without having access to their numbers, it's hard to know what could be done to effect the top earners without hurting others. There's proof it's possible, so it can't be said that it cannot be done.
@Ashraam-VanEyre
Which MMO's Allow this? I know that Guild Wars 2 has a market to exchange in-game for premium currency, but it's just with other players (the game won't produce new currency). WOW and EVE will broker to allow one player to buy game time for another for in-game currency. Black Desert allows the trading/gifting of premium items
I haven't seen any MMO where you can directly purchase a premium currency for in-game currency. Many offer daily trickles of premium currency based on in-game accomplishment, but it's not the same.
@hjfudge said in Secondary Market Collapse:
Largely because selling silvers for $$$ or items for $$$ to and from players...skews the game in odd ways. An earlier poster said it, and they aren't wrong, that it gives an incentive to people to MASSIVELY abuse the silver generation mechanics and generate BILLIONS of silver to try and sell online. Its a PROBLEM, and it has done more harm to the game than almost anything imho. (besides MultiAccounting)
I'll repeat: We dont need silver drain so much as we need to increase the perceived value of silvers in the In Game economy.
Wouldn't increasing the value of silvers in the In Game economy only give more incentive to the "multiaccount to generate silver for cash" crowd?
I've seen it work like this:
You can farm for gold in-game. Randomly, players will also discover "coins" (for the sake of brevity and not linking it directly to a game). Various unique cosmetic / convenience items could be purchased with "coins".
In addition, you could buy another currency, we'll call them "tokens", with USD. "Tokens" allow you to buy a large range of cosmetic and convenience items, but sometimes there are cosmetics you can only buy with "coins".
The game also created an in-game marketplace to sell your "coins" for gold. You could not transfer "coins" via any other means except through this marketplace. If you didn't have gold, you couldn't have any chance of buying those rare cosmetic items. Secondly, if you had lots of gold, you could have access to convenience items without being forced to spend USD.
Gold usually = Time. The more time you spend in the game, the more gold you could accumulate. This system is specifically designed to reward time spent in-game.
@ashraam-vaneyre
Right, but which game was this? Just the name is fine. I want to research. I've never seen a game where you could flow from In-game to out of game like that without it being a brokerage to another player (the house always wins).
@archsenex said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@ashraam-vaneyre
Right, but which game was this? Just the name is fine. I want to research. I've never seen a game where you could flow from In-game to out of game like that without it being a brokerage to another player (the house always wins).
I believe the game was Blade & Soul, but don't mistake this for purchasing the same currency as you buy with USD. This is basically an "auction house" for a currency you can only find in-game being traded for another currency you can only find in-game between players.
The end result is that you always have a use for your gold.
There already is always a use for silver. Selling it for cash. But the massive overproduction of silvers means that that market became inflated.
If we instead had a "silver for bloodscrip" market, feels like the massive overproduction of silvers would make that market every bit as inflated.
@kcostell said in Secondary Market Collapse:
There already is always a use for silver. Selling it for cash. But the massive overproduction of silvers means that that market became inflated.
If we instead had a "silver for bloodscrip" market, feels like the massive overproduction of silvers would make that market every bit as inflated.
Sure, but what do you need your silvers for? If there's no in-game use for silvers that people need them for, then what are they worth? What's the point in accumulating silvers?
Another thing people could use secondary currency for in Blade & Soul, was buying "lottery" type boxes that awarded lots of goodies. If you had enough gold, you could buy up a ton of coins from players, and do the BnS version of digging (without the tedium). That made in-game currency valuable. People could buy gold from other players because gold can be traded - but not the coins. They had to be purchased with gold using an in-game auction house.
People have mentioned this before, but at very least it would be a start if they'd allow enhancive recharging for silvers (instead of bounty points) more than once a year--or even all the time.
If they're reluctant to allow that since the game isn't balanced around the idea of people having nonstop enhancives, then whatever they're doing with post-cap goals could be another place with a silver upkeep--since I'd imagine they will make specific areas balanced around those. (Even if these things are far off.)
For me I spend way more the 50 dollars with a little cash and buying books for silvers. Eg was 50 and then I used my silvers. Box office was much better for me. I am sad that the one thing THEY said wasnt going away with box office is. They have gotten greedy its the way of the world. I like wyrom but part if me wants this to bite them all in the ass because of what they have done.
@beldannon5 said in Secondary Market Collapse:
For me I spend way more the 50 dollars with a little cash and buying books for silvers. Eg was 50 and then I used my silvers. Box office was much better for me. I am sad that the one thing THEY said wasnt going away with box office is. They have gotten greedy its the way of the world. I like wyrom but part if me wants this to bite them all in the ass because of what they have done.
Yes, but you have a gambling problem. You need to recognize that and get treatment.
@allereli
Beldannon likes to gamble. It's only a gambling problem if you can't afford it. Beldannon can afford it, let's move on from this low hanging and inaccurate fruit.
@ososis said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@allereli
Beldannon likes to gamble. It's only a gambling problem if you can't afford it. Beldannon can afford it, let's move on from this low hanging and inaccurate fruit.
I think it's a problem when it makes someone extremely annoying to exist around
@allereli
You aren't around him, and you can block him if it's so so terrible. Stop defending your shit posting and just let it go.
It's not helpful, it's not accurate, and dismissing his input because of such nonsense is actively damaging.
@ososis
I think the less...combative point is this: No one forced him to spend more than 50 dollars on DR or any event.
We'll see if we cant get the same value from Ebon Gate for around the same price point. Im skeptical, but Im willing to give them a chance here. I guess it depends onw hat you used to do during that event! I could never stand digging for hoooours but I did, on occasion, dig. I mostly was there for the merchants and raffles :)
@ososis said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@allereli
You aren't around him, and you can block him if it's so so terrible. Stop defending your shit posting and just let it go.
It's not helpful, it's not accurate, and dismissing his input because of such nonsense is actively damaging.
actually I cannot block him on here yet. I have him and you ignored on the PC and him ignored on the officials. I find constant idiocy during those events to be damaging.
@leafiara said in Secondary Market Collapse:
People have mentioned this before, but at very least it would be a start if they'd allow enhancive recharging for silvers (instead of bounty points) more than once a year--or even all the time.
This is probably a re-hash of the topic since I haven't been around, but honestly this looks like something worth investigating/fleshing out. As it stands right now, recharging enhancive items requires game time in the form of bounty point payment. Silvers is another version of game time, however there are a lot more freely dropped coins than bounties. That said, there COULD be a formula for this that allows for the player to do either. Those who don't have the in-game fat bank accounts can have the option of using bounty points, and those that do can recharge via silvers. The trick is the amount. It would need to be high enough to be an adequate silver drain, but not so high as to not be attainable.
@allereli
Well that's certainly a great reason to be shitty towards him here!
MORE NONSENSE. Move on.
Maybe prices for more NPC services should scale. Level 0 characters often get charged the same as level 100.
@allereli
Have they not fixed block here yet? @Whirlin please update this so Allereli is no longer FORCED to be shitty to people.
@ososis said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@allereli
Have they not fixed block here yet? @Whirlin please update this so Allereli is no longer FORCED to be shitty to people.
I don't see how pointing out his gambling problem, and a feeling and expression of entitlement to win may be a sign of a problem, is being especially shitty, perhaps it would help him. Perhaps it would get him to stop the constant fucking posting about not getting a big prize every single fucking event.
@allereli said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@ososis said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@allereli
Have they not fixed block here yet? @Whirlin please update this so Allereli is no longer FORCED to be shitty to people.
I don't see how pointing out his gambling problem is being especially shitty, perhaps it would help him. Perhaps it would get him to stop the constant fucking posting about not getting a big prize every single fucking event.
Oh fuck off with that "maybe I helped him" shit.
A: You dont actually know anything about his gambling habits, you are extrapolating based on PC posts and making assumptions that are both unfounded, and factually inaccurate.
B: Your comment about his NEED to recognize it AND seek treatment was way over the line, especially because of A.
Stop trying to spin it. It was a shit comment, nothing more nothing less. trying to defend it or make it not a shit comment just makes this way more of an issue than it needs to be.
Move on from it.
EDIT Stop editing your comments when I am trying to respond to them.
You can ignore people here. I'll send a chat with details.
Well I would have sent a chat @allereli, but apparently you have to follow me first.
@alastir said in Secondary Market Collapse:
You can ignore people here. I'll send a chat with details.
I tried to ignore someone else the other day, sent it to Ondreian, and he said it was an issue.
I have chat disabled.
Chat is one of my favorite things. I don't have to actively check PMs, I just get an instant message!
It was gone, then back, I guess it's gone again.
@alastir said in Secondary Market Collapse:
Chat is one of my favorite things. I don't have to actively check PMs, I just get an instant message!
It's indicated in my profile how people can chat me.
@erek said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@leafiara said in Secondary Market Collapse:
People have mentioned this before, but at very least it would be a start if they'd allow enhancive recharging for silvers (instead of bounty points) more than once a year--or even all the time.
This is probably a re-hash of the topic since I haven't been around, but honestly this looks like something worth investigating/fleshing out. As it stands right now, recharging enhancive items requires game time in the form of bounty point payment. Silvers is another version of game time, however there are a lot more freely dropped coins than bounties. That said, there COULD be a formula for this that allows for the player to do either. Those who don't have the in-game fat bank accounts can have the option of using bounty points, and those that do can recharge via silvers. The trick is the amount. It would need to be high enough to be an adequate silver drain, but not so high as to not be attainable.
Actually, you shouldn't allow players to recharge with silvers - you should allow players an in-game method of trading their silvers for bounty points. And the only way you can gain bounty points is by farming silvers, or completing AG quest.
I stand by my opinion of his habits based on over a year of observation. If you think it's shitty for me to point it out, I think his behavior is shittier.
@allereli said in Secondary Market Collapse:
I stand by my opinion of his habits based on over a year of observation. If you think it's shitty for me to point it out, I think his behavior is shittier.
From wikipedia. Problem gambling (or ludomania, but usually referred to as "gambling addiction" or "compulsive gambling") is an urge to gamble continuously despite harmful negative consequences or a desire to stop. Problem gambling is often defined by whether harm is experienced by the gambler or others, rather than by the gambler's behaviour. Severe problem gambling may be diagnosed as clinical pathological gambling if the gambler meets certain criteria. Pathological gambling is a common disorder that is associated with both social and family costs.
Please describe how Beld's enjoyment of gambling has led to any negative consequences for himself and others aside from the annoyance you personally feel.
If you can't, I hope you appreciate how diagnosing and recommending a treatment plan is the definition of shitty.
It's not shitty for you to point out that Beldannon annoys you, or that you are tired of hearing the same complaints. but it is shitty to be shitty, which you were.
@ososis said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@allereli
You aren't around him, and you can block him if it's so so terrible. Stop defending your shit posting and just let it go.
It's not helpful, it's not accurate, and dismissing his input because of such nonsense is actively damaging.
This isn't entirely accurate. There are posts where Beldannon even says he has trouble stopping himself. This indicates a desire to stop a behavior and an inability to do so. While none of us are qualified to diagnose a disorder, it certainly seems by his own words he has an issue, which I believe is what Allereli is referring to.
@ososis said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@allereli said in Secondary Market Collapse:
I stand by my opinion of his habits based on over a year of observation. If you think it's shitty for me to point it out, I think his behavior is shittier.
From wikipedia. Problem gambling (or ludomania, but usually referred to as "gambling addiction" or "compulsive gambling") is an urge to gamble continuously despite harmful negative consequences or a desire to stop.
Like I said previously, in some of Beldannon's posts, he more or less states he wish he could, but he keeps doing it anyway. By your own post, I'd say that meets the definition bub.
So...about that silver problem in the economy...
I really like the idea of using Silvers to get Bounty Points. I dunno what a reasonable ratio would be. But thats a great way to give silvers more perceived value.
I think that more ideas like this are good.
@viekn said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@ososis said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@allereli said in Secondary Market Collapse:
I stand by my opinion of his habits based on over a year of observation. If you think it's shitty for me to point it out, I think his behavior is shittier.
From wikipedia. Problem gambling (or ludomania, but usually referred to as "gambling addiction" or "compulsive gambling") is an urge to gamble continuously despite harmful negative consequences or a desire to stop.
Like I said previously, in some of Beldannon's posts, he more or less states he wish he could, but he keeps doing it anyway. By your own post, I'd say that meets the definition bub.
Don't "bub" me please.
Do you feel that those previous posts on overspending at events is grounds for diagnosis of addiction?
Do you feel that the comments about him accepting and getting treatment were some sort of good faith intervention?
EDIT Actually, scratch all that. This opinion is a shitty over step, if you want to defend your shitty over step, go for it. I don't have anything else to say on the matter.
@ososis said in Secondary Market Collapse:
Please describe how Beld's enjoyment of gambling has led to any negative consequences for himself and others aside from the annoyance you personally feel.
The constant "why didn't I win? I am entitled to win!" posts are bad for morale and suck up resources as GMs constantly have to explain slot machine mechanics. He doesn't just post on the PC, he brings these to the officials.
@ososis I think he's on the cusp of having a serious issue with gambling mainly because of factors out of his control. He seems to be utilizing silvers to gain access but with how the trends are going if that well dries up I'm not sure what he'll do. He could just drastically cut back on these type of events or he may take the leap and start using his own funds. I think at that point what seems like a harmless problem can turn into something much more serious.
Anyhow, knew a close friend with something similar, things turned for the worse for him in the end unfortunately.
@god said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@ososis I think he's on the cusp of having a serious issue with gambling mainly because of factors out of his control. He seems to be utilizing silvers to gain access but with how the trends are going if that well dries up I'm not sure what he'll do. He could just drastically cut back on these type of events or he may take the leap and start using his own funds. I think at that point what seems like a harmless problem can turn into something much more serious.
Anyhow, knew a close friend with something similar, things turned for the worse for him in the end unfortunately.
Unless you know him outside of game, your opinions on his life are pretty much irrelevant. As Allereli stated, it's not that she is concerned about his behavior, it's that she is annoyed with him complaining about not winning.
Thats' a totally acceptable annoyance, but lets stop trying to psychoanalyze people based on breadcrumbs. Especially if it's just because they annoy you.
@ososis said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@god said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@ososis I think he's on the cusp of having a serious issue with gambling mainly because of factors out of his control. He seems to be utilizing silvers to gain access but with how the trends are going if that well dries up I'm not sure what he'll do. He could just drastically cut back on these type of events or he may take the leap and start using his own funds. I think at that point what seems like a harmless problem can turn into something much more serious.
Anyhow, knew a close friend with something similar, things turned for the worse for him in the end unfortunately.
Unless you know him outside of game, your opinions on his life are pretty much irrelevant. As Allereli stated, it's not that she is concerned about his behavior, it's that she is annoyed with him complaining about not winning.
Thats' a totally acceptable annoyance, but lets stop trying to psychoanalyze people based on breadcrumbs. Especially if it's just because they annoy you.
No I also genuinely think he has a problem and have posted about it previously much more nicely, but not here. And I hope he gets help.
@ososis Oh yeah, definitely agree with you there. He could be a doctor pulling in 500grand a year for all I know. But, chances are this isn't the case. Anyhow, not really defending anyone here, just a gambling problem is extremely difficult to detect and almost impossible to stop due to the social taboos associated with it.
Let's move on to the actual topic.
In my defense. I have never bought silvers. I sell them to play the game after learning how to do that and by winning things. I like to gamble, but once again I don't use my real life money for this so I am not a degenerate gambler. I work night audit at a hotel and struggle to make a living. not that it matters
I agree, back to the topic please.
i want to keep playing and not having to pay out the butt for it. I want to sell for a decent amount and put it back into the game. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I apologize if it annoys people. My character has a terrible RNG and it annoys me that i play so much and don't win.
What was the topic?
@beldannon5 said in Secondary Market Collapse:
i want to keep playing and not having to pay out the butt for it. I want to sell for a decent amount and put it back into the game. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I apologize if it annoys people. My character has a terrible RNG and it annoys me that i play so much and don't win.
What was the topic?
The fall of the library of Alexandria and the impact on the western world since, I beleive.
@ososis said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@viekn said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@ososis said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@allereli said in Secondary Market Collapse:
I stand by my opinion of his habits based on over a year of observation. If you think it's shitty for me to point it out, I think his behavior is shittier.
From wikipedia. Problem gambling (or ludomania, but usually referred to as "gambling addiction" or "compulsive gambling") is an urge to gamble continuously despite harmful negative consequences or a desire to stop.
Like I said previously, in some of Beldannon's posts, he more or less states he wish he could, but he keeps doing it anyway. By your own post, I'd say that meets the definition bub.
Don't "bub" me please.
Do you feel that those previous posts on overspending at events is grounds for diagnosis of addiction?
Do you feel that the comments about him accepting and getting treatment were some sort of good faith intervention?
EDIT Actually, scratch all that. This opinion is a shitty over step, if you want to defend your shitty over step, go for it. I don't have anything else to say on the matter.
Sorry about the "bub". I'm drinking and didn't mean to be an ass. I already stated previously none of us is qualified to make that diagnosis. I think as logical human beings we can tell if someone has an issue with something though. I have an alcohol problem, but I'm not an alcoholic. I have issues, but I'm not an addict. Good faith intervention? Definitely not, just comments on a forum that has nothing to do with addiction. Unless it's a gaming addiction. :)
@archsenex said in Secondary Market Collapse:
@beldannon5 said in Secondary Market Collapse:
i want to keep playing and not having to pay out the butt for it. I want to sell for a decent amount and put it back into the game. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I apologize if it annoys people. My character has a terrible RNG and it annoys me that i play so much and don't win.
What was the topic?
The fall of the library of Alexandria and the impact on the western world since, I beleive.
According to Wikpedia, the library in Alexandria just kidding
@beldannon5 Such a perfect job for Gemstone though. You're at a computer all night and other than some sleep your more or less free during the day.
Yeah. I do have an 8 year old and a wife though. I enjoy playing when I have a chance to win something neat. The game and roleplay are cool too but hey to each their own.
@beldannon5 My character has a terrible RNG and it annoys me that i play so much and don't win.
@beldannon5 said in Secondary Market Collapse:
Yeah. I do have an 8 year old and a wife though. I enjoy playing when I have a chance to win something neat. The game and roleplay are cool too but hey to each their own.
Except you do win, all of the time, you just forget about it because you're moving onto the next win. It's not about the item, it's about the win.
waves goodbye as the actual main topic slowly sails off into the distance
@allereli
You just can't let it go can you?
I think we can call this topic fully explored.